[Gort]

Well Bear...it's unfortunate that there are members of the Mac community that refuse to give pcs any credence - like Photoshopuser, Mac Review and even Creative Pro; these publications for the most part ignore the viable and legitimate position of pcs in the graphics market - you said it yourself - all Mac screenshots. I know from firsthand experience that there is an unbridled snobbery about Macs in the Mac community; I am not saying that it's representive of the whole, but it does exist.

In all fairness, there are many publications, both print and web, that do show screenshots and shortcut keys for both platforms.

As for the insensitive remarks, just remember that if someone fires off a superflame doesn't mean they speak for the community as a whole.

Now let's get busy with the real issues in our lives...

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Carter:
Well Bear...it's unfortunate that there are members of the Mac community that refuse to give pcs any credence - like Photoshopuser, Mac Review and even Creative Pro; these publications for the most part ignore the viable and legitimate position of pcs in the graphics market - you said it yourself - all Mac screenshots.

---

What? You mean to tell me that you need to see PC screen shots in order to get something out of a Photoshop book? I mean, I get a lot of computer books with all Windows screenshots, and I somehow manage to cope. Is it so traumatic to have to see a few Mac screenshots once in a while? I've read the text of these Photoshop books, they take pains to explain that Photoshop is pretty much the same on both platforms. So, with that said, and with no "PC-slamming" in the books, why can't they show Mac screenshots if they choose?

And do you really believe that a Mac magazine should show PC screenshots? And, I've seen plenty of Photoshop tutorials on the web (and some Photoshop books) that show all Windows screenshots. Are you going to complain to these books and online tutorials? Are you going to expect them to go out and buy a Mac, just so they can show Mac screenshots? Because, you know, gotta have everything "equal".

quote

Quote:

I know from firsthand experience that there is an unbridled snobbery about Macs in the Mac community; I am not saying that it's representive of the whole, but it does exist.

I'm sure it does. Some of it is pure snobbery, some of it is a "backlash" against the pure unadulterated hatred towards Macs, that I see everywhere. I am cross-platform, I have both Mac and PC (but use my Mac for Photoshop most of the time). I have gotten all sorts of grief for using a Mac; I have been insulted, treated with condescension, told that if I want to get some "real" work done I need to get a PC, yadda, yadda yadda. Do you get this kind of treatment as frequently as I do? Probably not.

Since there are so many more PC users than Mac users, odds are that the random Mac user is going to be subjected to FAR more abuse than a PC users�just do the math.

quote

Quote:

In all fairness, there are many publications, both print and web, that do show screenshots and shortcut keys for both platforms.

As long as they give keyboard shortcuts for both platforms, I'm OK. I have Photoshop books that are all Windows screenshots, and I coped fine. There was this one Dreamweaver book that completely ignored the Mac platform, which really pissed me off. (No keyboard shortcuts, no mention of Mac AT ALL.) That's pushing it too far. I mean, if they want to make a Dreamweaver book for Windows only, advertise it as such!

If the content of a tutorial is cross-platform, I can cope with the screenshots being only one platform. I'm so used to being in a world that is dominated by Windows screenshots, I don't see any harm in (once in a while) having a computer book with all-Mac screenshots. Really, I think you-all can cope with it. Honestly.

quote

Quote:

As for the insensitive remarks, just remember that if someone fires off a superflame doesn't mean they speak for the community as a whole.

This goes both ways. I'd really like to be able to use my Mac in peace, without being insulted for it. Give me a freakin' break.

quote:

---

Now let's get busy with the real issues in our lives...

---

Amen.

[Gort]

Oh Bear...why you so pissed...eh? You're reading way to hard into what I am writing. No - I don't "have" to see pc screens. And don't put words in my mouth - I never, ever once implied that it was traumatic to see Mac screens - did I? I don't think so. I don't care - you seein' this? I don't care.

quote

Quote:

do you really believe that a Mac magazine should show PC screenshots?

You're right about Mac Review; I wouldn't expect anything other than Mac screens, but Photoshop user and Creative Pro - those aren't Mac pubs but they sure act like it.

quote

Quote:

I have gotten all sorts of grief for using a Mac; I have been insulted, treated with condescension...

I've been in the same boat. I once went to work for a very large studio and was ridiculed to no end for requesting an NT workstation - day in and day out. That's the snobbery I had to deal with - people telling me to my face I wasn't a real creative pro if I didn't sleep with Steve Jobs.

Are you a person of conviction? Heed not the cries of fools, and get busy living! Buck up and grow a thick skin - deal with it - let it roll off. Jiggy?

end of line.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Carter ]

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Carter:
Oh Bear...why you so pissed...eh?

---

You think I'm pissed? No, more like peeved. And since I was originally responding to a weird homophobic/sexist post, am I not entitled to that?

quote

Quote:

No - I don't "have" to see pc screens. And don't put words in my mouth - I never, ever once implied that it was traumatic to see Mac screens - did I? I don't think so. I don't care - you seein' this? I don't care.

But you are the one that brought it up. If Mac screenshots, and the attitude of some Mac graphics people don't bother you�you "don't care", then why bring it up?

I brought up Mac screenshots only to show that Mac users are writing valuable Photoshop books. You are the one that wrote:

quote

Quote:

it's unfortunate that there are members of the Mac community that refuse to give pcs any credence - like Photoshopuser, Mac Review and even Creative Pro; these publications for the most part ignore the viable and legitimate position of pcs in the graphics market - you said it yourself - all Mac screenshots.

Why bring up Mac screenshots? Why not just complain that members of the Mac community aren't taking PCs seriously enough? What exactly do the presence of Mac screenshots have to do with anything, anyway?

And, even if some Mac snobs don't take PCs seriously, so what? PCs dominate ... what? 90%? 95% of the market? So who cares what some Mac geeks think? They are a tiny minority.

quote

Quote:

I've been in the same boat. I once went to work for a very large studio and was ridiculed to no end for requesting an NT workstation - day in and day out. That's the snobbery I had to deal with - people telling me to my face I wasn't a real creative pro if I didn't sleep with Steve Jobs.

Well, that truly sucks.

quote

Quote:

Are you a person of conviction? Heed not the cries of fools, and get busy living!

I am quite busy, thanks. I am allowed to get irritated by shitty attitudes, though, aren't I?

quote

Quote:

Buck up and grow a thick skin - deal with it - let it roll off.

Gee, thanks for that Life Lesson. How did you deal with the Mac snobs at your previous job, by the way? I assume, then, that you never complained? You never allowed their attitude to bother you one iota? You were totally cool with it? Because frankly, it doesn't sound like that. It sound like...well...you weren't real crazy about being treated that way.

[Gort]

Listen up, Airmack...

No sir - you brought up the whole, "woe is me - woe is you - look at all these screenshots - waaaaaaa"; I didn't bring it up. Go back to the beginning.

I dealt with those people the way I deal with anything that is pretty much moot. Rolls off. Maybe you oughta do the same; you're obviously a wound up individual and reading way to hard into this diatribe. For the record I've encountered more respect in the PC community for Macs than PCs have encountered in the Mac environment, so I don't know who you work for or what, but if it's that bad and irritates you to no end, then maybe you should look for other work or find another line of work besides computers, because it doesn't look like anything is going to change anytime soon. If not then DEAL WITH IT - there's a Lesson in Life.

I can't believe I am bantering with you. Really. Go ahead and quote all you want, Cheeseboy.

Stick a fork in me.

[Lee Yiankun]

What? this board don't have an admin?

Testing:
Fuck!
Suck!
Shit ass!
(hmm, I see I need to practicing calling names more often)
Testing:

Wow! this board sure is great!

[Gort]

Bear - I sincerely apologize to you for calling you Airmack and Cheeseboy; I will admit that it was a bit out of character for me. Please don't take it personally.

I do however stand by the gist of my comments - name calling aside.

[Lunatique]

HawkOne- Man, I'm so tempted to go and create my own UI with one of those tools, but I really should be spending the ridiculous amount of time it'll take on my paintings and 3D instead.

*sigh*

[Gort]

Hawk - what's your experience with these tools; have you ever had any problems with the actual shell implimentations? I've read some reviews about users having problems restoring to defaults and some of the standardized stuff getting a bit whacked.

Overall those are some of the coolest UI mods I've ever seen, and I too like Lunatique fall prey to the unavailability of time.

[Pat]

HawkOne:

Didn't notice there was a reply till now. First of all, I'm not your "regular Mac-Fanatic". Your list of mac credientials is impressive, mine is more so. My first Apple product was an Apple II and I've had at least one Mac from every product family since the Mac was first introduced. Additionally, I also have some PC's as well. In fact, I'm currently running Win2K SP2 and I like it alright.

Here's where you goofed:

The GUI wars have been over for almost a decade. While the MacOS remains, IMHO, the most intuitive and practical OS, it's hardly a sell point now. Rather, Apple has chosen to rely on their unified hardware and custom software ties to the "digital lifestyle", centering the Mac as the unifying device in the hub. Products like ITunes, IMovie, IPhoto and IDvd directly address most of the consumer media software needs for free.

Professional end G3's and G4's did not breath new life into Apple. In fact, while they remain an important segment of their market, their impact to the bottom line is a distant second to the true savior: Apple's Consumer Product Division. Imacs, IPods and Apple's competitive portables generate far more profit for the company. The return of Steve Jobs has also helped considerably. While most claim him to be a visionary, I suspect he's helped more by providing a face to the company.

Apple's dominance in the CG field comes from their strategic alliance with Adobe. You mention the DTP thing, but you failed to see the deep connections between Apple and Adobe. It was Apple's intial investment in Adobe that allowed them to develop Postscript. It was Apple's interest in the upstart Aldus which produced the Postscript-powered PageMaker, the application that launched an industry. In fact, were it not for ONE dedicated Apple salesman, who drove a considerable distance out of his way to demo the Mac to a few of the guys at Aldus, PageMaker would not have been developed for the Mac, nor could it have incorporated Postscipt or kicked off the DTP revolution. The success of Postscript allowed Adobe to gamble on some other applications including John Knoll's little raster image-editing program called Photoshop. The rest, as they say, is history.

Prior to Photoshop's dominance, image-editing on the Mac was in a pitiful state. There was no color management as you suggest. Sadly, Amiga's did kick both Mac and PC ass in terms of image editing. Deluxe Paint was, pound for pound, the most amazing graphics program ever. But both Atari and Commodore were poorly run. Their failure as companies was due, in large part, to themselves.

You also seem to imply that Bill Gates dumping cash into the company enabled Apple to produce G3's and Imacs. As I understand it, that's not the case. First of all, it was $150 million, not $500 million. Secondly, Microsoft did not "mysteriously" come to the aid of Apple. As was revealed during the Anti-Trust hearings, Microsoft extorted Apple by witholding Microsoft Office development unless Apple chose to bundle Internet Explorer with the MacOS instead of Netscape. Apple felt the suite was simply too popular with consumers to give up and felt it had no choice.

Clearer now?

-Pat

[Gort]

Ya Ms Bear...

You're right; I did get a bit bent, but it really had nothing to do with you; it was external thing. I actually thought later about just how stupid it all sounded - all the energy I was putting into it. Quite silly actually. The problem with computers, email and dicussion groups is that we too often fail to sense the inflections of real face to face conversation.

FOr the record, I do typically let the whole mac/pc argument roll off. It's kind of old. I try to spend my energy on other things - like arguing on discussion groups. I just felt as if you were misreading me, and the more we tried to come to terms the less liklely it seemed we were getting anywhere.

oh well

[hans_e]

*holds breath*

alright, alright, enough with this. Mac people like macs, and pc people like pcs, and others are bi... tolerant of both. To each there own let everyone decide what to use and how to use them on their own terms.

Macs for women and the gay population? This is disturbing because this breaks what I thought was true. See, I'll have to do some soul-searching because now that new evidence has come to light, I've realised that I might be straight. Yeah, I think that macs are great and I usually work on a pc... maybe I'm just confused.
And another thing about that comment. What if the user was a butch lesbian (both gay and manly)? Does this meen that she's a pc freak? hmmm.... I'll ask a few when I talk to some this week.

Though I think that the person who stated that only gays and women use macs was just fucking aroung to get a rise out of people (in that case i semi-respct you trying to start a fight), if not I still dont care.

People are entitled to their opinions just as much as they are entitled to use whichever OS meets their needs.

whatever whatever, blah blah blah...

[HawkOne]

@ Luna :
You really don't HAVE to start off with spending lots of time making your very own skin/icons. Isn't there even one out of these thousands of skins that appeal to you, that you would think was nicer to look at work with than "Windows Gray" ?? When I first bumped into this whole UI customisation thing I just started drooling over having something different to look at / work with, so I spent 10 minutes downloading the Windowblinds software, and installed it in a few secs. then I went looking for that cool skin I saw that triggered my desire in the first place, clicked on it, and 30 seconds later, it was my new UI look. Gorgeous I thought ... and not very timeconsuming at all ... I later also got hold of that IconPackager "gadget" because I saw some cool icons I liked ... same process there ... And lately I've been looking into that whole DesktopX interface, and it looks relly interesting, but I haven't been able to play much with it yet ... I like those animated icons, floating objects and stuff though, so since I'm supposed to be into interface design and all being a multimedia designer, I will be sacrificing some time to it ... because I think it will be good to have some new toys/tools to play with ...

PS Luna ... I'm not sure a man with your record of strange occurences should be trying anything of this until you have backed up everything, gotten a life insurance, computer insurance, and house insurance too just to be safe that you will not destroy half of China in some freak accident ... triggering Chinas nuclear arsenal or something.

@ Tom :
First of all I have so far only tried StarDock and Astons products, I am still waiting for Hoverdesk 2.5, due soon. I have seen some of those problem messages too, although I don't really think a stock Dial-up Connection icon not returning to it's former ugly self, and such things being much of a problem, I do however realize some of the other things might be a pain in the ass, like the poor guy who had problems with his MSN Messenger after installing DesktopX.
I tried reversing the icons to their former glory, just to see if shit happened, and selected "Restore All Icons", and that's exactly what happened. I've had absolutely no problems so far, knock on wood, and my "good ole" NT machine is still chugging away nicely. I dunno, there's always a risk I guess, once you step off the tried and tested path, but I am a TryNewThings-o-holic, and in my case it's incurable I'm afraid ... so I'll just keep on doing it until I get punsihed somehow ... heheh ... I'm all backed up in all directions anyway, so I'm able to reverse anything bad that might happen ...

@ Bearsclover:
Much ado about nothing ... I thought you would be familiar with the irony Roundeye dishes out every now and again by now. Of all the posts to react against ... that one was very obviously just left there as bait for previously mentioned Mac-Cult members to attack ... ... I can't believe you went for it ... hehehe ...

@ hans_e:
Good ... at least you suspect something is wrong with Roundeyes ironic flamebait ... But you still posted regarding it with some seriousness ... heheh ...

@ Pat :
I pretty much figured you would chicken out from further ... umm ... dialog in this thread ... luckily I was wrong ... I hope someone can be bothered to read all this ... so I can have some witnesses ...

I have little other to complain about with Apple, other than false advertising (their staged Pentium killer shows), and what Tom mentioned, the snobbery/fanatism of many users, the seeming need to be different ... or something ... and the need to be part of loyal to a small / special / different community ...

I would hardly say that you have explained much of your previous claim that the info I gave in the Computers for artwork crap that I wrote way back there, since you seem to be repeating much of what I said in the first place.

Now, talking about goof ...

I said:...
The whole "OS-userinterfacething" has been a mute point for quite some time ...
You say:...
The GUI wars have been over for almost a decade ...

I said:...
Apple soon after announced the hugely popular (and cute) iMac line, and soon after the equally popular (and gorgeous) G3s.
You say:...
Professional end G3's and G4's did not breath new life into Apple.

I said:...
Macs dominated in the graphics area because they were the pioneers since this whole DTP thing exploded in the early to mid 80s ...
You say:...
Apple's dominance in the CG field comes from their strategic alliance with Adobe. You mention the DTP thing, but you failed to see the deep connections between Apple and Adobe.

I said:...
In the good old days Amigas for graphics and Ataris for sound, kicked Apple & Microsoft butt in most areas except in the crucial area of marketing ...
You say:...
Sadly, Amiga's did kick both Mac and PC ass in terms of image editing.... But both Atari and Commodore were poorly run.

I wrongly said:...
500Mill ...
You nailed me:...
150Mill...

As far as I can see the only point you have nailed me on is the 150Mill vs. 500Mill, which I admit was the number I remembered, rather than the number I can back up. I still feel that 150Mill added a little slack for Apple to stay afloat for that little while longer. I will not insist of the correctness of rumors of course, since neither of us will be able to know what really went on. If Microstoft has the power to fend off the US lawmakers about various antitrust issues for as long as they have, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to imagine what other things they might be able to get away with unnoticed ... You even seem to claim I said Professional G3s and G4s were the reason for Apples recent good fortunes, when I stated the iMacs huge success was ... Puzzling ...

Is it just me or aren't you just pretty much repeating what already I said for the rest of your goof-up-points ? You do add some additional info which I never even mentioned or disputed, and thus hasn't really got much credence since I have not disputed the fact that Adobe has played a big role in CG. Items such as free included iMovie and iDVD and stuff like that I agree is good stuff, but since I never even mentioned that, it is hardly an argument to support your earlier claim.

I still think your claim of "completely whacked" is a little over the top ...

Just some additional comments...
The GUI wars are over ??? Isn't Apple OSX and Windoze XP evidence that the battle is still going strong ?? Both "vendors" are still ripping into each other like rabid dogs to try to crate some sorely needed selling point. Isn't Microsoft doing with XP what they have always been doing, following trends, and of course also the Apple developments more or less step by step.
Apples "Digital Hub" hype, is that really so groundbreaking ? The fancy name is theirs of course, and god help me for using it here. Microsoft is following as best they can as usual, but since they don't control inclusion of USB and IEEE1394 in the hardware department, their support for those technologies has been only software based. I've been using all of my computers as a digital hub since my Atari ST1024 (with a Motorola chip) was hooked up to my Synthesizer via the embedded MIDI interface. That was back when a 40MB HDD was considered massive. Although I don't, musicians still use that old shite today, since they still think Atari is the best for MIDI and composition, I do not share that view anymore.

The X in XP... now microsoft is pretty daft sometimes, but that name is just stupid. I guess they wanted to have some X-Factor in their OS too ... because X is a very strong design element ... or something ... daft ... just Whistler would have been so much cooler ...

Of course rumors are just rumors, and nothing more, I do of course realize that, which is why I said that is what is was, but seeing Microsofts history of having quite a few little snags in their nice "deals", like introducing their IE is one thing, since Office for Mac and all sorts of game developers started flocking to Apple after that little matter of injecting 150Mill.

When I referred to G3 as being a development that brought light back into the end of the tunnel for the mac, I was first mentioning the iMac and then the G3 processor, not just the G3 or G4 "puter" as you claim I stated.

I really still think my second posts quoted version from the AppleMuseum of Apple being down in a VERY deep hole after loosing a TON of cash is pretty descriptive.

( Now we'll see how much UBB typos and shit I got in this post ... )

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[V Shane]

Uh oh, looks like I stepped into another room where the topic has nothing to do with the actual post topic, other than "OS religion arguments"


Man, I was really hopin to get some insights here...ah well, the politics of dancing.

[Pat]

Tom Carter- Some articles supporting the Microsoft $150 million extortion:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/technology/html98/appl_102998.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jul2001/micr-j06.shtml

The exclusive contract between Microsoft and Apple for the distribution of Internet Explorer was probably one of the more damaging pieces of evidence cited during the hearings. Their actions were plainly transparent and their motives inescapable. Accordingly, they were found in violation of the Sherman Anti-trust law. This ruling was upheld by the US Court of Appeals and should be easy enough to track down information on.

HawkOne: I think my confusion rests in your nebuleous use of the term CG. Prior to Photoshop, I think most image-editors and consumer platforms sat on roughly the same ground. While Macs clearly had an overwhelming advantage in vector based printer output, Macs had no advantage in PIXEL-BASED image editing. In fact, I'd argue they were at a distinct disadvantage due to the small monochromatic monitors they pushed for so long. Calling them pioneers in this CG frontier seems whacked to me. The true CG pioneers weren't at any of the hardware companies, they were at the software companies like Adobe.

As for the listed points, each of them was directly in response to your arguments. Some of them were affirmations with you and not ment to lend credence to any of my arguments. However, just because your facts are in order doesn't mean your interpretation of them isn't flawed.

There's a lot of confusion stemming from the poor naming decisions of Apple's G3/G4 computer line and Motorola's G3/G4 chips. In the future, refering to the chipset using it's given PPC # designation will help avoid that.

Understanding this, you might reread what I posted to see where I was coming from. The only point I think needs clarifying is my attribution of pro model Macs over consumer models resulting in Apple's recent good fortunes. The train of thought jumps a little, but is as follows: The G3 and G4 pro models were no where as popular as the Imacs --not even close to the "equally popular" you state. I think your intent was to credit the Imac with the Apple's salvation, but your wording has that credit shared equally with the pro models. While I agree the Imac was in large part responsible for Apple's good fortunes, my point was designed to explain that it contributed in part --not solely, rather in conjunction with-- Apple's other consumer products, including Powerbooks, Ibooks, Ipods, etc.

Here's where I think we seriously deviate: Microsoft's extortion of Apple. That $150 million didn't lay the groundwork for the Imac. I disagree that it "allowed" Apple to "stay afloat" a little longer. While it's true Apple was struggling at that point, the $150 million was actually unneeded and unwanted. The cash was layed out to purchase non-voting shares of Apple stock, which turned out to be an excellent investment for Microsoft. Withholding development on their Office Suite to leverage the buyout was illegal. Microsoft was essentially able to force Apple to sell a large part of itself at cut-rate prices as well as bundle their competition's browser! This is hardly the "magnamimous gift" to their friendly rival that Microsoft played it off as. My favorite rumor was that Microsoft was propping up Apple because if they went out of business then they'd surely be labled a monopoly. Thankfully, most of those shares were later repurchased by Apple, but at greatly inflated prices. Net result: the so-called "cash infusion" actually cost Apple huge profits. The only real winner here was Steve Jobs, who can honestly claim the moral high ground in this one. He somehow managed to spin this as a positive step for the company and keep a smile on his face while being ass raped by Bill Gates. Steve literally cut off a limb to save the body so that Mac users could open their PC MSWord files from work. How's that for dedication to your market's interests?

Your claim that game developers flocked to the Mac after said infusion are just silly. The number of games released on the Mac is a pitance. Any increase can be directly attributed to Apple's increased emphasis on contact staff for developers. Additionally, specific development tools such as GameSprockets ease the creation and intergration of game code with the MacOS --making it more attractive companies to give it a try.

Rumors of Apple's demise have been around as long as the company has. It suprises me that, as a long time Apple owner, you're taken in by Microsoft's most recent batch of spin-doctoring. If you're really such a free spirit, unattached to any particular platform, why aren't you more impartial when it comes to the hype? Oh, that's right: Apple's goofy Photoshop shootoffs anger you because they're "rigged", while Microsoft's illegal business practices and subsequent purchasing of justice raise nary an eyebrow? Am I to conclude that you don't mind being misled, if only it happens on a colossal scale? To each his own I suppose, but I think I've got plenty of room to argue "completely whacked".

-Pat

[bearsclover]

First off, Tom, I appreciate the apology. But I must correct you on one thing: It's MS. Bearsclover to you....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Carter:
No sir - you brought up the whole, "woe is me - woe is you - look at all these screenshots - waaaaaaa";

---

You need to look at the context, please. (And while you're at it, could you not get so pissed?)

Someone before me said that "only gay people and women use Macs". To which I replied, "Well, Scott Kelby and Deke McClelland have contributed much to the Photoshop community, and they use Macs. Hey look - their Photoshop books show Mac screenshots [meaning, they used Macs to create these books]". I was simply pointing out that there is more to the Mac community than "gay people and women". (Which is a deliberately offensive homophobic and sexist comment.)

quote

Quote:

I didn't bring it up. Go back to the beginning.

I brought up screenshots in a minor way �only to point out that Mac users have written valuable Photoshop books. You are the one that said it was a "shame" that some Mac users didn't respect PCs, and said "as you said yourself�Mac screenshots". As if this was some evidence to support your opinion that some Mac users don't respect PCs is a viable graphics machine. So, what was I to make of that?

quote

Quote:

I dealt with those people the way I deal with anything that is pretty much moot. Rolls off.

Suuuuuure it does. Oh yeah. That's why you brought it up here, that's why you have gotten pissed at me. Because "you don't care", and because it "all rolls off". SUUURE

quote

Quote:

Maybe you oughta do the same;

You mean, get as worked up as you have gotten in this post? No thanks.

quote

Quote:

you're obviously a wound up individual and reading way to hard into this diatribe.

Ooh. Thanks ever, Dr. Freud.

quote

Quote:

I can't believe I am bantering with you. Really.

That's because you let everything ROLL off your back so easily, and you "don't care".

quote

Quote:

Go ahead and quote all you want,

At least I know how! (Just kidding! Kidding!)

I know you apologized for the above diatribe, but still, it was too delicious to pass up. Here, you giving me all these lectures about how I should let it "roll off" and all...

It's OK, I am sure we were just getting our wires crossed. And your assumptions about almost everything about me have been incorrect. I'm not a guy, you have NO idea what kind of job I work in (it's not computer-related) and you really don't know anything about what motivates me at all. It has been kind of amusing to see you get so worked up, though! (JUST KIDDING!!!)

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[Gort]

Whoa Pat -

quote

Quote:

Microsoft extorted Apple by witholding Microsoft Office development unless Apple chose to bundle Internet Explorer with the MacOS instead of Netscape

I'm not saying I disbelieve you, but can you substantiate that claim? I always thought that was the case but have never be able to firmly stand by it myself (it was a debate wth a colleague and me)

grazi

[Gort]

I heard (or read - can't remember) that one the conditions of the $150 buy/prop/whatever was that Apple couldn't license their technology - something they were about to do; is that true? Imagine what that would've done for the market! I firmly believe it would've given Apple a better chance of garnishing a bigger user base and becoming a formidable competitor to the pc market. Apple clones might not sound to appealing to the diehards, but it sure as hell would've lowered the prices on the machines.

[Pat]

Tom Carter - I don't think that's true. There were Mac clones for a short time, just prior to Steve Jobs returning to the company. One of his first orders of business was to kill that outright. It's rumored he also killed a top secret project named "Star Trek", which was a version of the MacOS which ran on PC architecture. I heard it was called Star Trek because it went where no Mac had gone before.

In any event, Steve valued the unified hardware platform. His reasoning was simple: the more 3rd party vendors there were making components, the more headaches Apple users would have with incompatibilities, driver issues, etc. If you've ever suffered through port conflicts, wonky 3rd party hardware and the like, you can understand why some people claim that Macs "just work better."

Honestly, the inside of a Mac looks a lot like a PC these days. IDE, ATAPI, PCI, AGP, PC133 SDRAM, USB etc etc. Hell, the OS is just a GUI built on top of Unix now, too. PC users should be right at home in there. It's hard to argue that all that cool Apple styling is worth the extra $$, but there is a certain elegance to the whole package that appeals to my artistic nature. My PC, on the other hand, looks like Frankencomputer --and sometimes acts like it too. However, they both run Photoshop just fine.

-Pat

[Gort]

Pat -

Well it was something amusing to think about anyway. Imagine seeing a CompaqMac...or a GatewayMac.

quote

Quote:

Steve valued the unified hardware platform...

(See Ms Bear - I can quote) I understand your point of view concerning the headaches of third pary integrations, but "unified hardware platform" just sounds a bit too proprietary and restricted. I wouldn't be surprised that if Apple were the dominant player, it would be them locking horns with the Justice Department - not MS. Now that's just an opinion or speculation - I'm not saying it's the word.

[hans_e]

HawkOne,

I know, i know, it was a dumb thing to do but i've been reading this thread everyday and got bored from not adding anything to this festering pot. Sorry if i seemed to care.... To tell you the truth, I thought it was rather funny (personally stereotyping artists for the most part are Liberal and would take offense to Roundeye's verbal "bashing").

I think that with this topic, where stone throwing is expected, more controversy brought to the table only makes this board more enjoyable.

[balistic]

Jus' playin. They're computers, guys . . .

[HawkOne]

OK, OK, OK ... Pat, like balistic so subtly hinted at, it is obvious you have a more thorough insight/interest of Apple/Microsoft politics and lore, where as I have merely skimmed the tips of the icebergs, focusing more on the software and hardware I've had between my hands than what has been going on at Apple (or Microsoft) shareholder meetings or Anti-Trust litigations ...

I'll be the one to throw in the towel then ... since this seem to be about as likely to be resolved as ... ummm ... Microsofts vs. US Department of Justice ... I'll let you continue to read between the lines or ... dear tahw I etorw sdrawkcab ...

I still think it is nitpicking from your side though Pat, since the things I mentioned in my original post were what you claimed was "completely whacked", and your "explanations" were virtually identical or even claiming that I had said the opposite of what I had actually said without even bothering to quote me ... but if my previous post was unclear or "nebulous" to you about that too ... and if you're unwilling to concede that you overreacted and deliberately or otherwise twisted my words to suit your case... then I should probably just get myself into law school so I can be able to "formulate" unmistakable statements with correct Motorola chip numbers and all...

iMacs were a HUGE hit for consumers ... new Apple territory ...
G3 workstations were a HUGE hit with Apples original main customers, the various professional graphics areas, even I dropped 2500 smackers to get hold of one, ... and NOT in ANY way comparable by numbers sold, but by the positive receptions of those who were sick of their older "grey-style" PowerPCs ... I hope there is enough forgiveness in you to forgive such a TERRIBLE lack of detail in my first post ...

You claim that I'm more lenient with Microsoft than with Mac, again this is a complete fabrication from your side, when claiming such things I think it would be appropriate to at least give a direct quote of some sort, instead of just taking my words, mix it up, and assemble it in your own design.

I will admit that I am less affected / emotional about Microsofts ruthless business-practices, since the worst of it is rather obscure behind-the scenes dealings, mafia style, putting the squeeze on various smaller hard/software producers, where as the thing I mentioned about false claims from Apple, such as pretending to be the shiznit by finally having a stable OS (5 years after NT4), and their whole Intel killer hype, is very much more in my face than a 2 year delayed Microsoft lawsuit in a court somewhere in Texas (or whatever). If Microsoft didn't push their IE down everyones throat, I'd probably get hold of it anyway, because as far as I know it is one of the better out there, and it is free & bannerless, which is also good AFAIAC...

Lame analogy time :
If I were to buy a new car, trusting the salesman when he told me that this car was safer than a Volvo, had better performance than a Ferrari, and was tougher than a Hummer, and then proceding to sell me this beauty ...

Sooner or later I would (hopefully) realize that I'd been had ...

If anyone ask "why does my computer crash so much, I'm using Photoshop 7 on Win98 and my machine has 4MB RAM" I'd bluntly say that Microsofts Win95/98/Me are all shit, and should NEVER be used with any pro applications unless you particularily enjoy looking at the blue screen of death ... How that can be interpreted as being overly Microsoft friendly, I'll never understand ...

I guess I'll just print out Balistics diploma, and see if I can use that to get into Harvard Law School...

[Gort]

Hey - shouldn't I be getting one of those from Bearclover???