[gLitterbug]

As I�ve said some times, if some people would have been direct and honest from the start, it all would�ve been no big deal.

The problems were lies and that people got hurt.

I don�t blame you (Isric) or anybody else of lumental members because he is there to learn, but I couldn�t have somebody as idol who shouts out stupid paroles, hurts people and thinks he is some kindof �ber-god and feels good by doing all that.

[-Gux-]

Isric: Exactly. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gives a shit if you stop posting here.

Let's stop caring wether the leet boyz are starting their own forum.
Let's concentrate on making this forum better instead.

....*fart*

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: -=Gux=- ]

[seburo_007]

mmmm. anyone read the dr seuss book "The Sneetches?" http://www.courier-journal.com/foryourinfo/021400/021400.html
or http://www.shelbystar.com/nie/sneetches1.htm

just my 2 cents... not trying to offend

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: seburo_007 ]

[S4Sb]

Isric: Why are only a few crabs allowed to learn from what is outside the barrel?

[-Gux-]

Posted this before, posting again.

My suggestion:

* More active moderation, more moderators.

* Banning ip's and account removal.

* Clear guidlines on how and what to post in appropriate sections.

* Making wip a place where also to post sketches and junk.

These are my suggestions, I don't know how possible they are but I think they are a step in the right direction.

[nova]

Dhabih says he's almost scared to come look and post something. Told me himself.

[S4Sb]

We are no roaming mob. It's just that we are too many to show brains.

[Red Leader]

I stopped posting here in any serious way not long after I started. Even in the short time between April and today, I have noticed a quick slide into the mire, as far as quality of posted work and critiques in general. It's a shame, because this place, and mostly the quality people who have left, are what got me to start back into illustration in a bigger way, instead of just my color work. (Thanks again for the inspiration, Loki)

I started to type out a big post, bitching about how everyone is acting like babies for not being allowed into the "Teacher's lounge" but decided to not waste my time and get back to work. Shit threads like this one are why this forum started to suck in the first place, and why people left. *sigh*
If you don't like that Lumental won't let everyone in, then everyone needs to strive to make this forum worth posting to again.
To that end, I will do at least 5 REAL crits this weekend, and post something new by Monday.

Oh, and I will not be a part of a "Student" forum, if that's what this place turns into. Obviously most pros would leave, and who will be left to give solid advice? Other unknowledgeable students? Think long and hard about that before promoting the idea.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[Fred Flick Stone]

MY MY. THis has become quite the spectacle. This is one of the first threads here in a while that I really felt compelled to write to. WHy, did this happen? THIS IS AN ART FORUM, not a day care center. It seems as though some of the babies have gone rampant and are threatening to destroy a good thing...
Seriously though, this is supposed to be something of a benefit to those who may or may not have the luxury, or good fortune to have any art facility in their immediate vicinity. And it is, or was supposed to be a training grounds for these new to the art world, getting constructive feedback from their images they labored over, hoping to get it right. I don't see that anymore. I haven't seen it in a while. I tried, but I get too caught up in too many things, all creative endeavors for me but destructive for my life, and schedule. SO the forums I can't visit the way I used to be able to when I had the time to. I am in the process of helping build an art studio for online purposes, a sort of Famous Artists COurse, that Rockwell, and many others back in the day ran. But I fear this a bit. As, this forum unfortunately has become a good example of what can happen when things aren't regulated as they should, or can, or should have been. I don't have a quick fix, or the total solution for how to keep things under control, but I can say, that in a world of freedom, we each are in charge of our own actions and this place is no exception. I am saddened to see people like Spooge abandon something he helped raise, but I understand. It really does suck to se the system abused, and repeatedly. And it makes me leary of letting many know about the tutorial system we are going to start, as it too can ultimately become jaded as this place is becoming.

I can say that as long as I have been on this forum, a certain person who started this thread has had his hand in turning things into pretty ugly situations, ugly in the verbal slug fests that have occurred infrequently in the past. People who start fights of this nature are always going to exist, it is rather unfortunate, but they do exist. By me talking about this type and contributing to this thread, I am acting no better than he. By all of us responding to such ludicrous posts in the first place makes us all guilty, we all add to the destruction. One thing that many people can do well, is add to the misery of others. It is not difficult to find anger in someone. It is much harder to contribute to the well being of others. And even harder if your life sucks, or things are going bad for you in your life.
This thread is nothing more than an extension of negative emotions stemmed from someone who can't control them, obviously, or this thread would never have originated in the first place. I know I have given honest crits to this person, who isn't half bad at what he does, and he couldn't take em all that well. In fact, he responded as though I had no right to critisize his genius. Not all of them mind you, but a great many of them were flagged off as me telling him what to do or what ever bend he decided to place on them. Because of this one particular person, I have had to be careful about my delivery, and I have had to place apologies, and disclaimers in many crits I have given, just so no words would be taken incorrectly.
I thank you for showing me your type of personality, so I can learn to deal with your type when I again have to confront someone like you. And in teaching many students, I eventually will run into someone like yourself. Believe me, you are not unique in any way, including your faux hatred toward the world. I know many Goths who have gotten over their youthful anger towards others, and towards the way life treats em, or should I say, the way they perceived the world as hatefully, and wrongfully treating them. but I thought that by now, as old as you are, you would have grown up, and dealt with situations like this a little more maturely. I agree, the Lumental Inaugural statement was a bit overstated, and under supported in its details, but act your age. It isn’t like not getting into a forum is the end of the world. Oh pity pity, maybe you should look at the way you have perceived yourself to be in the eye of others, and maybe you would understand why you aren’t allowed to be a part of something, trying to be something good, if there is such a thing. There are kids on this forum, half your age who can handle critisisms better, and don't go running to the moderator because they found their "hero" or fav. artist posting elsewhere.
I am sorry I am going on as such, I just have no sympathy for anyone who tells others they don't need to be educated to be good at what they do. And he knows what I am talking about, if you others who read this don’t. If this is the case, then why isn't he out in the "real" world making waves in the art world, with the self-proclaimed genius talent he possesses. The lack of education will keep you down, especially because you don't know that it is. Thus the problem with arguing with the ignorant; if they don't know they are ignorant, they are never gonna see your point, because in their mind, they are a genius. Go figure.

I guess I have felt that I needed to say all that, just because this kid is the kind of, I'll be kind, “person”, that can ruin good things.

And back to what I was getting at, by us, the rest of the ranters aiding the lame, we are no better. We then become the problem, and the true heart of the problem becomes masked to everyone. Thus, chaos and confusion only exist. The two things that one certain person seems to want to contribute whenever he can. It simply baffles me.
I have never wanted to bash anyone on a forum before, I don't feel I have a right to, except Synj, that little punk ass pubic hair, but I can't help it. When I see so many talents sign off bacause of the one bad seed, I can't hold my tongue anymore. Given, there are many others who abuse this forum by drawing three lines and asking for what kind of background the image should have, or where do I go from here? Or the worshippers, or other ridiculous things that don't need to be...but when you start things of this nature, and you attempt to stain the reputation of others because of the name calling you resort to, lines need to be drawn. Not that anyone here is stained in reputation, but you are giving bad implications to innocent people who maybe just want a break, or really want to have others around who can help, and not someone who is going to give some retarded comment or whatever… We are artists, and we really don't work in environments chalk full of others of our type, and it can be exceptionally difficult for some to go out of their way to ask for help, rare unto itself. Forums are awesome. I have grown more because of them, vs. not involving myself at all, thinking I am too good for others. We need places like this, not destructive behavior that can terminate good places like this with a blink of an eye.
Getting back on track. The "other" forum I have posted onto has been very helpful, and easy to get to all the posts and images, a nice comfortable pace, to break up all the other hectic shit going on in life. The way this place once was. I don't want to see this place digress and revert back to the good ole days. That thought process is just as destructive as acting this way.But I do hope some action is taken, and either certain types are clipped from the pack, or there is tighter regulating on this forum.
I hope that the guys with good heads on their shoulders do not or are not discouraged in their art because of this sort of thing, the sort of flame tactics that have taken over the ideal of what places like this are supposed to really be. This forum was supposed to help others, and show off some peoples art that may never be seen by others for one reason or another. It takes a lot to get artists to contribute to anything especially an artists forum, as most artists are pretty introverted. I am stoked to see so many enthused future artists contributing to forums like this, I just don’t want to see it all disappear.
In a place of education, or a place of discussion, a certain invisible rule always applies: Respect. This place has lost a bit of that, and losing it more and more daily. Each time someone places a post like this one, or other ludicrous posts similar in nature, you are showing more disrespect than you deserve to be here. In formal educational facilities, these types are removed from the grounds permanently. WHat can be done online? I am unsure. I don’t have that answer. All I can say, is regulate your own facility, and restrain from adding to the negativity. That is about all.
It is really easy to sit and rip on others, make a stink about what ever and so on. It is not easy to find places like this forum where we all have the same interests, and can learn from each other. Believe, me, coming from an art atelier that is unique, and getting people from around the globe coming here to San Diego to attend, I can say that anything art related, and of any quality at all is difficult to find. It exists on a very, very minute level.

DON’T BLOW THIS ONE. Use common sense, and most of all, enjoy what you are doing. I can’t emphasize this enough. You enjoy your art, your life, etc. You are more than likely not going to post anything negatively, and or not going to add to the misery of others already dwelling there.

Jeez people, why can’t we just all get along? Or fake it better?

My hands hurt, I go now…

[Freddio]

Has anyone seen the movie The beach..

well Lumental is the beach and Sijun is tha mainland...

I still enjoy looking at Lumental, the good thing about that is you can learn much more on that forum than you can on this, just by looking at the crits from good artists.


I forsee this forum to slowly die down in the near future, but then it will rise up again and maby it will return to the old sijun days.

I think that Lumental registration should not be based on an artists skill level but rather on his contributing level to the forum.

If the member make two posts and then is never seen again whats the point. They should accept people who stick to the forum post art fairly regularly and take time to give comments and crits..

YOu dont want a whole forum only posting their art wanting crits, but they themselves must give crits in order to recieve them.

take lumental, those artists are willing to give crits and comments and be helpful. And inturn they will recieve help. It works in a circle.

[ambient-whisper]

this thread is funny.

i remember someone telling me that lumental was originally created for purposes so that when sijun was down people could post there. ( remember when sijun was down? )
not many people have been informed of that place...and i been told of it by a friend...which also ( as he says ...recommended for the creator to look at spiraloid and its set rules.)

not sure how many people know of it but its a forum for digital sculptors. most of the rules are identical to lumental.

they were set so that there would be no software wars as you can find on almost any 3d forum....no flames would be tolerated...and you would kicked almost immediately..
and after all of this...even though some didnt like..people went with the rules...and things seem to work there. just fine.

so i see lumental as a good opourtunity to have a community thats always on topic...with little to no whining...nor the drama.

i post on a few other forums outside of sijun..so i dont see lumental as a threat..but just another place to show/view work....

ofcourse then a few people didnt like the statement...it got changed a few times....then membership got closed off for a while...and people complained....and now everyone is bitching.....gah.

theres a lot of noise here...and personally, i dont like too much noise....all these flames toward stneil...flex666 ( i think thats his name )

even faustgfx is noisy and negative at times which makes me sick ( notmally i dont mind him but that negative thread about the texture tutorial that someone made to help others was over the top. ( sorry i didnt bother to read all of it...so i dont know how it turned out. ) )

i post here...show my work because some people ask to be updated on some pieces...and i dont mind it...but with all this over-reacting....flames...negativity..i seem to post here less and less frequently.

lumental is a good oportunity...the creator/s seem to be a little confused how to go about doing things because they never intended for these problems to arise in the first place.

"you cant please everyone."

this statement goes soo far. take sijun for example. it doesnt have many rules..( even if it has...they arent put into action )
so people dont complain. then theres people who have been here for a long time...and they dont like the way things are going because the rules arent being followed..
they make their own "treehouse"...create their own forum thats based on invitation..( which is fine with me )...they create rules that they would like to see enforced so that the things that happen here wont occur there...then people argue that they dont like the rules..rules get changed...and in the process of changing rules membership gets put on hold...people complain...you just cant win. people always seem to like to defy the rules and bitch...but without rules you have whats been happening here......you just cant win.

man..if only people put as much into their work as they do whining.

[-Gux-]

Personally, I don't give the slightest if Lumental exist or not. I'm just horrified by that the lack of respect here is enourmous.
Certain people treat them selves as they are great teachers of the arts and looks down on dreaded "unprofessionals" with their inferior knowledge. And the thing that's worse than that is that many accept this and think that the elite people are truly great and think of them selves as inferior to them.
Sure, I use exagerated words to describe this but take a look some of the posts here and maybe realise that it's not so far from the truth.

I really hope that I'm not the only one here that thinks like this. Because of my post count (thus a low social status), my opinion will most likely get ignored.


on a completely stupid note: I actually have the famous artist course. Pretty fun read, a bit old though

[ambient-whisper]

well. im a member at lumental.
and i dont think of myself as superior.
what i think that needs to happen over there is....

make it public.
have tight moderation...little toleration.
have members be assigned their status ..( not through post count...but by the quality of their posts.)

(maybe the admins ould have to setup a system that would regulate this..and send in automatic forms to them so they can see if they are "worthy to become full members"

so..everyone could speak....but only valuable members would get more access to the forum. (ie. ability to make threads)

( yes..its pretty much what is done at spiraloid.)...but it works.

[faustgfx]

fred flick stone: bullshit. this thread is here because frost was somewhat negative towards someone who got hurt for it.

oh, and tell me when was i denied membership from lumental? did i ever try to get in there? i have no interest in getting there.

faux anger.. goths.. youths.. yadda dadda. big load of bullshit. opinions and angst are a bit different things, you know? and this is about opinions.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: faustgfx ]

[Isric]

Well, I'm done

[c]

faust you keep saying you were defending someone who hurt someone else.

i've seen so many hurtful comments from you towards other posters it's not even funny. youre hypocrisy is kind of scary. i think you should maybe rethink your actions and attitudes a little. i'm sure you will grow out of this but maybe we can hasten it with a little self reflection?

and i dont mean to be insulting really, i can see where you are coming from, i just think you should question your own way of thinking a little more. hehe gee that sounds stupid .

anyway.

re: lumental. i hope they freaking accept more people cause the forum has been positively DEAD the last few days.

[Isric]

because they're the crabs who are smart enough to hop out, instead of focusing on pulling other artists back into the dredge. Really you all have NO right whatseoever to say Lumental shouldn't be (don't get me wrong, I'm not some nazi here) but honestly, where on EARTH do you think you have the right to tell people where they can and cannot go? Tell them who they have to let in? If they want their forum to house what they like, how DARE you say otherwise? It's like when we were kids and we had a tree house. All the sijun kids want into the lumental tree house, but guess what?! There's no mother here to tell Lumental to 'let your little brother play'. What's left? to deal with the way things are. If Frost, or whoever started it wants it to be that way, there's nothing you can do abou. No i don't agree with insulting people when turning them away, but where is YOUR justification?
(PS I wasen't saying 'Your' to anyone in particular, just the mob)

[faustgfx]

"faust you keep saying you were defending someone who hurt someone else."

errr. i'm defending someone who was hurt BY someone else.

it is not hypocricy.. it would be if i in some point had denied that i am an asshole towards everyone here.

[Oblagon]

1) the new forum is a nice place to chat for frost and his er, colleagues (?). 2) you will learn 0 from reading critiques. you improve by doing something repeatedly not reading bs.

[Oblagon]

oh, i;m glad the new forum is there (else i would miss that big gun)

[-Gux-]

quote

Quote:

All the sijun kids want into the lumental tree house...

Do you honestly believe that? That's a pretty grave misconception.
I think the more people with that attitude this forum loses, the better the forum will be.

[Lunatique]

Ok, this has gone on long enough. What's done is done, and apologies were made, and people have explained themselves on both sides.

Let's move on to making Sijun a better place.

Toss some ideas around.

I think a couple more moderators that are more aggressive would really help(Dahbih needs to make a decision about this). Maybe it's a bit severe, but I think we NEED to have moderators deleting problematic threads mercilessly for a while until this place is cleaner.

My previous art school idea isn't bad, but that's really re-designing the whole forum from ground up. I don't think that's the answer(unless some brave souls want to start another forum and design it from the ground up to be like an online art school).

Anyways, I hope Dahbih makes a decision soon about additional moderators.

[c]

woops, yea, that's what i meant.

bleh shouldn't have posted it anyway.

[Snake Grunger]

Well, I kind of feel scared of sticking my neck back here. My reputation here is DONE. But, before I leave, maybe I could clear some things off by simply footing the bill on a certain ammount of issues.

I'm not going to answer EVERY one's arguments or questions or whatnot. It would take me all month. But one thing I'd like to make clear is this.


I love art. I love art that is treated passionately. I love people who love art the same way I do. That is why I wanted a quiet place, call it a mansion, a private clubhouse, the King's court, Hitler's backyard, or whatever, to reunite my siblings and share together in peace of mind. Yeah, indeed, maybe it sounded a little harsh, calling my place a "elite place", but I think I didn't realize the agravation of the word when I first mentionned it. (No, I won't edit my message to remove it hehe)

Being the part "owner" of the board puts me in a "president's" seat, or chair, or throne. I hate that seat now that I look at it. I love the chair in front of my canvas most. That's where I want to be, forever.

But, we can obviously compare Sijun to a democracy, where everyone is perfectly equal, no one will get censored for saying their ideas out loud, and where "freedom of speech" is gladly given to each and every member, regardless of their antecedants. The difference between Sijun's democracy, and our current American (or Canadian) democracy, is that there are no police. Noone is ever arrested. Noone is ever put in jail. Noone owns a criminal record. And I think is what Craig here was so mad about, when <insert name here> posted that tower and bragged on on how good he was.

But if we want the above to be created, we need a Senate, councils, meetings, bills, laws, Police Departments (hehe, we could just build one like in SimCity, *click*, build, no more crime!), jails and etc. But, since we are all here on our free time, those things simply cannot exist.

I know we might have hurt a few, and this is because of our bad planning at first. But we realized we simply don't have the time or energy to dedicate to opening an office to filter the applications. It would be awesome, but simply out of our reach. This is the sad truth.

This water is boiling way too much, someone just turn off the oven, please, so we can continue on with our lives.

[c]

that's cool.

but if yer gonna do the invite-only thing please invite s'more people! even as a spectator i enjoy browsing the lumental forum but after the initial explosion of posts it's been very, very quiet.

[Binke]

And I still feel insulted
*pokes Faust*

I go paint now

[Sumaleth]

I haven't read all the posts here, but it's a discussion I've been having in my head and haven't really worked out what I think yet.

SIJUN:

Oh boy. It just got too popular, it's as simple as that. I see a lot of posts in this thread about it not being moderated, well that's probably half true. We still move threads to the correct forums and close problem threads, but to have any real effect would mean;

a) deleting stupid posts
b) banning IPs

Doing a) is impossible because of the time it takes to delete one post - about a minute or two with all the page reloading and what not. To make an impact I'd probably need to delete 50 a day, minumim. And I'd need to read every active thread several times a day to try and delete the dumb stuff before people have seen it.

ie. It would need to be my fulltime job.

It's just not possible. I can check every hour and still find a dumb thread started and 10 dumb replies.

Doing b) is also not possible for me since only Dhabih has admin access and.. well yeah. (and most IP's have multiple users, so you ban one and a group go)

Sijun has been overrun by newbies - and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, i just mean there are lots and lots of people posting that haven't been around long enough to "get it". They're posting pics that shouldn't be shown, posting replies that do nothing but make the situation worse, and expecting critiques on images when the only thing anyone can really say is "practice for a year or two, then come back". And they all have expectations...

I looked at *every* post on sijun until only recently. I finally got sick of wading through 20 crap pics for that 1 that does what I want from art - inspires me. Is that wrong of me? Should I be still looking through all the crap stuff purely in support of the up and coming artists?

Somewhere in me it feels like I should, but I have now reached a limit most others reached a while ago.

LUMENTAL:

Have to admit, the first thing that went through my mind when I recieved the email was "this seems a bit nazi". But I've been reading the forum a week now and all I can say is this - it's just like the old Sijun.

At what cost? I can tell from reading a few of the posts in this thread that there's a lot of disgust at the invite-only situation and I can understand that, but as someone who has been trying to moderate a 4500+ member forum for 8 months I will say this; it might be the only way.

I'm interested to see how it goes, how long it lasts. I think it's good that everyone can still read the threads, look at the art. Be lurkers. Everyone can be inspired and everyone can learn.

Row.

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Sumaleth ]

[dr . bang]

Well, i have a solution for the deleting post part. Howbout setting up a Garbage can forum where all the crappy post belong. In this, no member can reply, but only having access to view it.

This way, you dont have to reloading the pages.

[FatPenguin]

All sijun really needs decent number of fascist police.

The forum has been run like a hippy commune, and that was great when there were <1000 people. But it's just become too damn populated.

Most of you have been brainwashed by your first world ideals of 'freedom' and 'liberty' and all that right wing propeganda, and you think these ideals should be applied to the forum. If only you people had had the joy of living in an opressive dictatorship you would see how the situation would be remedied.

There's currently somewhere between 0 and 3 moderators, and of course, Sumaleth, there is absolutely no way you can keep 5000 people in order. The solution is obvious: more moderators. if a good 5 - 10 percent of members had power to push people around and generally cause unhappiness among the populace, you would quickly have a nice, clean forum again.

But all bad metaphors and non-sensical ramblings of someone who hasn't slept in 30 hours aside, I honestly believe that a greatly increased number of moderators would increase the overall quality of the board. Sure many of them would abuse their power, but that's all part of the fun!

[Sumaleth]

fat: I used to be on another large forum that took that approach (lots of moderators, deleting left-right-center) but that wasn't a good environment either. Threads got confusing (replies to deleted postings), people couldn't work out why their posts were being deleted which lead to more junk posts, and generally it was a similar situation to what Sijun is now.

Row.