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Topic : "Why are Bush and Co. so eager to start a war?" |
Mon
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:12 am |
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Steven -- 3000 - 3400 civillians were killed in the bombings of Afghanistan, more than the twin-tower casualties. And that's not including the casualties caused by the resulting humanitarian catastrophy.
A word about our Germans on the board. Nobody in his right mind could hold the young Germans of today accountable for what their country did 40-50 years before they were born. In the same way nobody hold the Americans accountable for the slavetrading or the numerous wars and acts of state terrorism that the US has carried out through history.
But I DO hold you accountable for what you're doing now. Anyone not speaking up against murder and death is to be treated as a murderer. Pat, what are YOU doing for the people your country is slaughtering?
/mon
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antx
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Location: Berlin, Germany "OLD EUROPE"
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:54 am |
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Pat: I really don�t understand how you could come to such an opinion about me. I still don�t see what exactly is wrong about my "words" (didn�t take any actions so far). Please do me a favour and read the thread again and try to be open minded towards me. This is a request.
I started this topic because there was something that I don�t understand and I was looking for an answer or at least opinions. I somehow interprete your replies as "shut up and solve your problems yourself". Perhaps my interpretation is wrong. If so then please correct me. But if not, then I can only say that you should not reply such things anymore since it doesn�t help it at all. If you think I�m wrong then please tell my what exactly is wrong and why. I won�t learn a thing from "shut up".
If we all point each other to our nations past to silence each other, then I wonder who still could say something here. This situation would be absurd.
And I agree with what Svanur wrote. One has not to be in the same situation as another one, just to be able or allowed to speak his mind to him. |
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elam
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:28 am |
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For all the self-righteous drivel and moral posturing you hear from Europeans, you never hear of any solutions.
What do you do about Saddam Hussein? What do you do about Iran, Syria, North Korea, Pakistan and the like?If what I hear is correct, you do nothing. Or at the least, you completely rule out the use of force to solve your problems, which flys in the face of logic and human behavior. Europeans strike me as cynical and hypocritical, unwilling to confront festering problems or become proactive to solve obvious problems. This is certainly historically true, as in the case of WWII, Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia-Hertzigovina etc., all in Europe nonetheless, so how can Europe be expected to rise to the challenge elsewhere?
In my opinion, we live in a world which is distinctly different from times past. Small groups of people have the ability to wreak massive amounts of destruction and death. There are too many people and too little resources. And many of these people are governed by tolitarian, facist or undemocratic regimes. Many of these regimes were supported by the United States in the past, primarily to thwart the Soviet Union, and to protect and propagate European and American prosperity and security.
I am definitely *not* pro war. I cringe at the thought of American troops invading another country. But I have come to believe that George Bush, for all his faults, truly wants to change the world, not because of oil or because he's finishing his 'daddy's work', but because he believes that American security is at stake. Antx's post and European comparisons of Bush to Hilter are both dishonest and disingenuous. My opinions have hardened in the last couple of months as it has become clear how incredibly ignorant peacenicks are of history and geography.
Euopeans recognize this: the luxury you have of protesting and the peace and prosperity you have is a result of the American policy, however flawed, which you so vehemently criticize.
Last edited by elam on Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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elam
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:29 am |
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| Quote: |
| I started this topic because there was something that I don�t understand and I was looking for an answer or at least opinions. |
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So it�s world domination after all. Not making one world = one country, but rather Amierica and the rest of the world as their slave. What an honorable goal... And many people in America don�t even realize that they are not on that side of America that is supposed to shine then. They get brainwashed and feed with censored media and give then up all their freedom willingly.
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Need I quote more? Get off the keyboard and pick up a history book. |
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faustgfx
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:45 am |
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| elam wrote: |
| Euopeans recognize this: the luxury you have of protesting and the peace and prosperity you have is a result of the American policy, however flawed, which you so vehemently criticize. |
lol. not what i would usually say, but lol.
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Drew
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Location: Atlanta, GA, US
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:03 am |
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| Quote: |
| But I DO hold you accountable for what you're doing now. Anyone not speaking up against murder and death is to be treated as a murderer. Pat, what are YOU doing for the people your country is slaughtering? |
Well, I suppose he's supporting a quick end to the war to take down a leader that most everyone in the world thinks should be taken out of power because he murders his own citizens with chemical weapons and is basically a pain in the ass. Then I assume he'll support the rebuilding of the nation with a government that gets along with most of the world instead of the opposite. Yeah yeah, a US colony. Oh the horror! Just like the poor Japanese who we've mistreated so much that they are a major economic power.
I'm not pro-war. I'm horrified that it has come to this and I do think the US reacted too swiftly. However, it can pretty easily be argued that Saddam had over a decade to get rid of certain weapons and provide proof of such. How long was the UN willing to give him? Mr. Blix (sp?) was not the first inspector to go through this ordeal. IIRC he was the third. How many groups of people were we going to send over? How many rules of the inspection were we going to let Saddam break?
The comparison between the number killed in Gulf War I and the WTC is not relevant. The US has no interest in killing random people to even the score. What in the world would that gain us? |
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Svanur
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:08 am |
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| Quote: |
| For all the self-righteous drivel and moral posturing you hear from Europeans, you never hear of any solutions. |
No country is better than the other, we have all our different faults. We are as equally as screwed up as the next. The reason for the heavy criticizing of the United States stems mostly from the fact that the US are the biggest news item. Believe me, European countries do criticize each others and it's own, it just isn't newsworthy to the media giants. If you find a way to get into the news about Europe you will actually find a lot of things to gripe about Europe and personally I would appreciate it. If my country has problems(and my country has a lot of them believe me) then they should be addressed.
I agree that the world has changed, some things have improved and others... well, they pretty much stay the same, human stupidity being one of them(who doesn't remember Einstein's quote).
I myself see the validity in the fact that life for the people in those countries could be better. In many ways Bush might be doing the right thing but his methods are questionable. The end rarely justify the means.
| Quote: |
| Europeans strike me as cynical and hypocritical, unwilling to confront festering problems or become proactive to solve obvious problems. |
A lot of festering problems are about the differences between all the nations of Europe. Unlike the USA we aren't united. Perhaps in a distant future you might be able to see something like the U.S.E(hehe sounds kinda perverted). We have a lot of countries who have old blood feuds(Britain and french for example) and for each country there is one language. Believe me, the USA would have their hands full if faced with the same cultural differences as Europe does. It's even worse when you think about that people in Europe don't consider themselves European but Swedish, english, Icelandic. When you are talking about Europeans you are taking a large portion of culturally different people under one name.
Each year the countries try to work in unison and believe in the beautiful dream of unification(at least some of us) but it's hard, especially since we have almost two millenias of shit to go through.
And to add it up, Iceland did support Bush and offered aid to the refugees of Iraq. Most people didn't agree with the government's decision and have heavily criticized it. We have our share of problems and if you want we can sure discuss about them, I would happily accept any input you have on the matter. |
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Drew
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:17 am |
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| Svanur, some interesting thoughts there. But please remember that the US is quite large, and different areas have pretty different attitudes. Also, we have a great number of different ethnic groups that have different beliefs and religions. We are not as united and single minded as our country's name might suggest. |
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neff
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:26 am |
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Uhm, one question:
Who was the last President of USA who dont lead or started a war?
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starfish
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:56 am |
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For the people in here who skipped history class
here's a little recount of what took place in Europe
almost exactly 70 years ago.
"When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History"
by Thom Hartmann
http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=245106&group=webcast
The Bush administration has copied Hitler's "successful" concept
to 100% and is using it against the people in the US
and foreign countries.
Now, do we learn from history or are we plain dumb?
Here's a little contest:
How many 3rd Reich "symbols" can you manage to find
that has been "reintroduced" since daddy Bush put W
in the White House? Any media counts.
Post your findings in this or a dedicated thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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Gort
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:24 am |
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| Quote: |
The Bush administration has copied Hitler's "successful" concept
to 100% and is using it against the people in the US
and foreign countries. |
OK - I have to quip in here. Starfish - I am not a Bush supporter; I did not vote for the man, but your comment is the most baseless and unsubstantiated thing I have heard to date in this thread, but hey - thanks for the laugh - I needed it!
Thom Hartmann's analogy is base soley on his own speculation and is not a valid or sound argument. To actually imply that American Emperialism will take the role of intense fascism is absurd.
This is not 1933 Germany, and if you really believe what Hartman is espousing, then I suggest you find the nearest cult, joined up and get ready for the mothership.
| Quote: |
| 3000 - 3400 civillians were killed in the bombings of Afghanistan, more than the twin-tower casualties. And that's not including the casualties caused by the resulting humanitarian catastrophy. |
Maybe so Mon, but you know what? The United States did not WANTINGLY and INTENTIONALLY fly a airplanes loaded with innocent people into buildings loaded with innocent people. Have you ever seen the manifests for those flights? Go look 'em up - you go look at the pictures of not just those men but those women and those CHILDREN that these scumbag motherfuckers WANTINGLY took to the grave with no remorse whatsoever. Go look hard into the faces of those people - look really hard. Here's some help
What about the stiff, putrid and swollen bodies of the women and children litterring the streets of northern Iraq? Where were the protestors then? Why weren't they filling the streets and protesting to the Iraqi Embassies?
LOOK at them!
Maybe one day when you're married with someone you love and have children will you understand.
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social drone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:36 pm |
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first of all im not pro or anti war, this is just my opinion:
why does bush say he wants a war with iraq?
1. because saddam is a bad man
2. because iraq has "wmd" or weapons of mass murder
3. because saddam was involved in 911
first of all, everyone agrees saddam is a bad man. he kills people...durring the war with iran the u.s. and iraq were allies, when saddam started killing shia muslims and kurds the usa did nothing...after half a million kurds and muslims had been murdered the united nations commission of human rights tried to charge saddam with war crimes...the usa voted against it. if saddam is a bad man, so is every world leader who turns a blind eye to genocide.
iraq has weapons of mass destruction, no shit...guess who gave them to him...the usa.
there is more evidence on the table to suggest our own president played more of a role in the horrible events of 911 than fucking saddam...
the fact is the war on terrorism is actually a war on the middle east. the attack on afghanistan had been planed far before 911 ever happened...
i dont give a shit about the middle east, let them die. modern warfare is fought by slaughtering civilians, they will die and lots of them. right now turkish forces are entering iraq to finish off the kurds, the residential areas of baghdad are in flames. and all you morons who think this war is being fought for democracy, freedom, 911, terrorism or anyother bullshit should go over to iraq and take a big deep breath....when you cough up your own liver ill piss on your grave.
this war is being fought for pipelines, oil, and the new world order.
hail, hail, hail and kill. |
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jr
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Location: nyc
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:55 pm |
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jimmy carter was the last american president whose term didn't involve any military action.
and on a side note...
if clinton was the first black president, carter was the first woman president... 
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Iliya Zilberter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:18 pm |
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excuse me? modern war fought by killing civilians? residential areas in flames? finishing off the kurds?
turn on the television for once, and look upon the doom you have prophesized.
Number of civilian buildings hit: ZERO.
Number of Iraqi forces who have already surrendered peacefully: 20%
this war will be won in a short time with very few civilian casualties...and overall the Iraqi people will be better off for it. as for the claims of us giving saddam his weapons: yes, it happened. but thats the thing about the US: every 4 or 8 years, we get a new leader who is not affiliated the decisions of the people he succeeded. Our leader right now never supported Saddam, and he is cleaning up after the dumbassed who DID give saddam his weapons.
to the person who posted the Bush/hitler comparison:
im seeing a lot more parallels between Saddam and Hitler: the genocide, the needless agression toward neighboring countries, the fascist regime. And what the European powers and the pacificst protesters are trying to do is repeat the wonderful tradition of British appeasement. Diplomacy will never shift Saddam out of power, it only gives him more time to fuck things up. I think after 12 years of "nickelodeon diplomacy" (thanks for that radio link, btw), its about time we realized that appeasment is not working.
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aColdOldKodiak
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Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:07 pm |
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yay for social drone, the 12 year old intellectual...
let's review his amazing insite
| Quote: |
| iraq has weapons of mass destruction, no shit...guess who gave them to him...the usa. |
Wrong
We supplied conventional weapons, nothing of mass destruction.
| Quote: |
| there is more evidence on the table to suggest our own president played more of a role in the horrible events of 911 than fucking saddam... |
lol... ok.
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| the fact is the war on terrorism is actually a war on the middle east. the attack on afghanistan had been planed far before 911 ever happened... |
So you work in the Pentagon? Post your referance material about this, though it sounds unlikely, it isn't completely impossible.
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| i dont give a shit about the middle east, let them die. modern warfare is fought by slaughtering civilians, they will die and lots of them. right now turkish forces are entering iraq to finish off the kurds, the residential areas of baghdad are in flames. and all you morons who think this war is being fought for democracy, freedom, 911, terrorism or anyother bullshit should go over to iraq and take a big deep breath....when you cough up your own liver ill piss on your grave. |
I don't even want to go through why that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'll just say that you said "i don't give a shit about the middle east, let them die."
You my friend, are really lame, and completely misinformed.
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Pat
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Joined: 06 Feb 2001
Posts: 947
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:35 pm |
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Been busy watching the war on the news, so I haven't had time to post a reply until now.
Svanur: I'm not angry at you. I'm angry at the growing perception that Americans are generally stupid, apathetic and mindless political sheep. Your language, whether you intended it or not, bluntly states that Americans are incapable of understanding our own cultural and racial legacy while also implying we're idiots for insulting these countries and our own heritage. Granted, there's always some idiot in every bunch who fits your discription, but by and large your assertion is basically bullshit. If my tone sounds angry it's because I've reached my fill of these baseless assumptions --they're just plain insulting whether they were intentional or not.
| Quote: |
| But I DO hold you accountable for what you're doing now. Anyone not speaking up against murder and death is to be treated as a murderer. Pat, what are YOU doing for the people your country is slaughtering? |
Good point Mon; hold me accountable. I'm not really researching cancer right now either. Guess that one's on my head too. An open apology to all the people dying of cancer: "I'm sorry for not finding you a cure. It's all my fault you're going to die --I was too busy smiting ignorance on the internet." I can play Moral Tennis with you all day long: What are YOU doing for the people who are dying everyday under the bloody rule of Saddam? Will their blood be on your hands if we stop the war? Ball's in your court now. I haven't even declared a position in this debate as of yet so it's going to be kinda hard for you to "hold me accountable" to anything but a lack of a position.
Lastly, Antx. Here's a highlight reel featuring some real classic idiocy. You might recognize some of these... they're all you.
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I simply see Bush and Co. as a band of raging, fanatic warlords who bring the "american arrogance" to a new high.
So it�s world domination after all. Not making one world = one country, but rather Amierica and the rest of the world as their slave.
Still, I wouldn�t mind a strong nation trying to better the world or even expanding up to the point where the world is just one nation.
The american government is really making me sick. Get rid of them americans! They cast bad light upon you.
I do not hate the US!
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Yeah, nothing up there would cause anyone to think you're a grade A cabbage head. I reread your posts again, in deference to your request, and have arrived at the same conclusions. You started this thread under the auspices of a healthy discussion, but have actually spent most of your time trying to appear reasonable while flat out being insulting to Americans. I weighed in on this topic because I was tired of hearing your crap. You're a broken record of misinformation and poorly reasoned opinion that's in danger of being repeated so often it'll be percieved as the truth. I chose to "do-unto-you" as "you've been doing-unto-us", using the same spurious logic you employed, in an apparently misguided effort to get you to see how absurd your argument was. This has nothing to do with the war, or whether that's right or wrong. It has nothing to do with Germany's past, America's past or man's inhumanity to man. It has everything to do with how YOU are opening YOUR mouth and being a prejudiced wank.
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| If you think I�m wrong then please tell my what exactly is wrong and why. I won�t learn a thing from "shut up". |
As if it's my fucking job to educate you. Hmmm, you seem to get the clue but you're somehow faltering on the execution. Here: let me spell it out for you: Sometimes the lesson is, in and of itself, just "shut up." Trust me on this one, you'll do your best learning when your trap is shut.
Feh. Most fruitless topic ever. I should have minded Ian Jones' post. Let's get back to art.
-Pat |
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starfish
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Posts: 126
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:08 pm |
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Wow, disinformation galore tonite...
Let's see if we can make some order out of the mess.
First to;
Gort:
| Quote: |
| Thom Hartmann's analogy is base soley on his own speculation and is not a valid or sound argument. |
How telling. You actually thought Thom Hartmann's article was an analogy.
Read it again and you will see that it is a recount of Hitler's way
to power in Germany back in the 30's. If you didn't learn about
the history of Germany in school I suggest you pay a visit to
your nearest library to get educated.
| Quote: |
| ...and if you really believe what Hartman is espousing, then I suggest you find the nearest cult, joined up and get ready for the mothership. |
Ahh, trying to pull a "strawman" now, do we?
Here is a link for you:
Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/baloney.htm
"What skeptical thinking boils down to is the means to construct,
and to understand, a reasoned argument and -- especially important --
to recognize a fallacious or fraudulent argument."
The page offers useful tools for the person wishing to engage
in a sound argument.
It also tells you what NOT to do, listing "the most common
and perilous fallacies of logic and rhetoric."
So, if you want to be taken seriously I recommend that you
take a few minutes to brush up on your communication skills
or you run the risk of being taken for a simple disinformant.
| Quote: |
Quote:
"3000 - 3400 civillians were killed in the bombings of Afghanistan, more than the twin-tower casualties. And that's not including the casualties caused by the resulting humanitarian catastrophy."
Maybe so Mon, but you know what? The United States did not WANTINGLY and INTENTIONALLY fly a airplanes loaded with innocent people into buildings loaded with innocent people. |
Ooops... You just tried to justify a massmurder with another massmurder.
NOT recommended.
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| What about the stiff, putrid and swollen bodies of the women and children litterring the streets of northern Iraq? Where were the protestors then? Why weren't they filling the streets and protesting to the Iraqi Embassies? |
The old story that Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March 1988
near the end of the Iran-Iraq war has been exposed for the blatant propaganda trick it is.
So far there are no evidence pointing to Iraq since the Kurd victims had
been exposed to a blood agent, (ie. cyanide-based gas) wheras Iraq
only had mustard gas at that time.
Read the article "A War Crime or an Act of War?" by STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE.
Being the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst
on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, he should be in a perfect position
to know.
The article also discusses the reason for the fierce fight over Halabja,
namely WATER which happens to be another reason for the Bush
administration to take control over Iraq apart from all the oil. |
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elam
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Joined: 27 Sep 2000
Posts: 456
Location: Motown
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:33 pm |
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| Quote: |
So, if you want to be taken seriously I recommend that you
take a few minutes to brush up on your communication skills
or you run the risk of being taken for a simple disinformant. |
Of which you are a perfect example.
Your entire line of 3rd Reich = Bush Administration argumentation validates a majority of the so called 'Baloney Detection Kit' criteria. As for the Kurds, again, you violate your own 'principles'.
| Quote: |
| How telling. You actually thought Thom Hartmann's article was an analogy. |
While the facts of the article are no doubt valid, Hartmann is obviously drawing an analogy between the two circumstances. In more generalized terms, these circumstances have occured numerous times in human history, so it's not much of a stretch, IMO. The telling part is your quote. Which says to me that your not listening.
Last edited by elam on Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gort
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:36 pm |
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| Quote: |
Read it again and you will see that it is a recount of Hitler's way
to power in Germany back in the 30's. If you didn't learn about
the history of Germany in school I suggest you pay a visit to
your nearest library to get educated. |
Yeah right - and it was presented analogously (maybe you need to get educated as to the meaning of the word and it's contextual relationship to Hartman's nonsense) to the current state of political affairs. I am very aware of Germany's history.
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Ooops... You just tried to justify a massmurder with another massmurder.
NOT recommended. |
I am not trying to justify mass murder with mass murder. My point being that where have all the bleeding hearts been while Saddam unleashed his autrocities on innocents? Well - where were they? What about the accounts - the THOUSANDS of accounts - of human rights violations by Saddam? What about the individuals that have vanished? Where have the protests been? Funny - I missed those - no one told me about them. Did I miss them? Are you getting my point? Now think carefully before answering with conjecture.
| Quote: |
The old story that Saddam gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March 1988
near the end of the Iran-Iraq war has been exposed for the blatant propaganda trick it is. So far there are no evidence pointing to Iraq since the Kurd victims had
been exposed to a blood agent, (ie. cyanide-based gas) wheras Iraq
only had mustard gas at that time.
|
Really? Wow - guess I must've been playing Quake when I should've been watching the news; Pelletiere has done a pretty sorry job of making his case. I wonder why. Maybe because there's hasn't been enough substance to his claim - or is it your claim - I forget.
Concerning Sagan:
| Quote: |
The page offers useful tools...tells you what NOT to do, listing "the most common
and perilous fallacies of logic and rhetoric." |
"Ooops" I don't think you read that part.
| Quote: |
| Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the "facts". |
You haven't presented one fact as far as I am concerned - only speculation. Please substantiate. But wait Gort - what about Pelletiere?? OK - good ol' Carl has an answer: let's see what he has to say:
| Quote: |
| You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result |
Well? What else have you got, because I am waiting to see what else you have. Surely Pelletiere cannot be alone!
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| Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours |
That one really applies to you. Really. You're the one raising a flag here, and for what reason do you do this?
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| Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. |
Are you getting all this - I have - are you? Probably not...
What NOT to do:
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| ad hominem -- Latin for "to the man," attacking the arguer and not the argument |
Wow - I guess your exempt from that one, seeing as how you got us all figured out and lined up against the wall.
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| straw man -- caricaturing a position to make it easier to attack |
Hey - you're good at that one too but not exactly exempt. Perhaps you're a "simple disinformant" too.
I better get going - I have to "get to the...library and get educated."
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elam
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Posts: 456
Location: Motown
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:42 pm |
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Holy quotes man! I thought of doing the same thing, but the contradictions are so obvious, I didn't bother.  |
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Gort
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 8:38 pm |
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I couldn't resist, Elam. I was a bit excited- especially after having a glass of VAT 69.
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Mon
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Posts: 593
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:26 am |
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| Quote: |
| What are YOU doing for the people who are dying everyday under the bloody rule of Saddam? Will their blood be on your hands if we stop the war? Ball's in your court now. |
Brief history lesson:
The blood was always on US hands when it comes to Saddam. Who trained him and provided intelligence for him in the 80's when he was waging war against Iran? Saddam used actual CIA satellite photos to launch attacks against the Iranian forces, the US knowing full and well that he had chemical and biological weapons and that he wasn't afraid to use them.
Now for the really bad part. The US initially helped cover for Saddam, blaming the Iranians for the gassing for the Kurds.
Will the blood be on my hands? Well, until a few weeks ago we had weapons inspections. They worked. Blix had great confidence in being able to disarm Iraq. We'll never know if he was correct.
| Quote: |
| I haven't even declared a position in this debate as of yet so it's going to be kinda hard for you to "hold me accountable" to anything but a lack of a position. |
That's actually your only true obligation in a democracy, to have an opinion, and voicing that opinion. Nobody is expecting neither me or you to research cancer, at least I wouldn't know where to start. But we are required to vote, and to make sure that the people we have elected do what we want them to. That's it. THAT's what I'm expecting from you and from everybody else.
Cheers,
Mon
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Ragnarok
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Location: Navarra, Spain
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 4:33 am |
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Mon, I think you are putting yourself in a dangerous position by saying those things about democracy because the actual US governement was elected by a small margin. So, it's possible that some people here are against what the gov is doing, but democracy is working. It's possible that people who voted Bush actually wants the war, so they are fulfilling your expectations.
About the blood... Mon, that happened, it's true. People died from chemical attacks. I don't know if it was US fault, but even if it was, I think you are blaming them for something that happened in the past, and so you might be doing the same Pat did when talked about germans. I don't think that's a valid point, sorry.
What might be a valid point is that those people that talk about peace aren't doing much for the iraqi people. But I wonder if a war is better.
Also I have to agree that europeans as a whole aren't giving solutions. Most of the people that protest don't talk about solutions. And some of them even think that is the government task to give solutions. That sounds cynic to me.
What I don't see is the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Sounds like the US gov is using emotional arguments to lead people to war. And I fear they do so to attack other countries. I mean, they could use the same argument they've used for Afganista and Iraq with Iran, Arabia Saudi, Pakistan... I hope this doesn't lead to a series of wars.
On a side note, a fact I've learned today, said by two different persons in two different radio channels (one being geologist and the other a cathedratic of energy resources): The world's second reserve of oil is Iraq, and more than 50% of these reserves where sold to France, Russia, Germany and China, within an indetermined period of time.
Is something to consider when thinking about those countries diplomatics these days.
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Mon
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Posts: 593
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 5:48 am |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| Mon, I think you are putting yourself in a dangerous position by saying those things about democracy because the actual US governement was elected by a small margin. So, it's possible that some people here are against what the gov is doing, but democracy is working. It's possible that people who voted Bush actually wants the war, so they are fulfilling your expectations. |
A democracy needs constant work, from all people in the country. It's not a democracy just one day every four years. And yes, there is the possibility that some people want war, but from what I have read so far most of the people here seem to have some appreciation of human life.
| Ragnarok wrote: |
| About the blood... Mon, that happened, it's true. People died from chemical attacks. I don't know if it was US fault, but even if it was, I think you are blaming them for something that happened in the past, and so you might be doing the same Pat did when talked about germans. I don't think that's a valid point, sorry. |
That was not intended as argument, rather than an attempt to give some background to the situation. And I don't blame any american on these boards for US policy in the eighies.
| Quote: |
| What I don't see is the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. (cut) ... I hope this doesn't lead to a series of wars. |
I share your concern. One analys I heard, spanish or italian I don't remember, feared something like a re-run of the 30year war, this time basicly a war against the entire muslim world. I generaly don't trust these analysts, they tend to like the sound of their voice a bit too much for my taste, but if he is even close to the truth then we have dark and troubled times ahead of us.
And Gort, the reason for not seeing much objection on the actions of Saddam in the past owes a great deal to the fact that the US backed Saddam in those days. Then the issue was the Soviet union's connection with Iran, so I guess in fighting the communists you'd have to put up with a few dead kurds.
/mon
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[666]Flat
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Location: FRANKFURT, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 7:23 am |
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Wow, it's amazing how much you can learn by reading a thread like this. Bang's a homo, there's something like "inner slutiness" and Antx's talking dumbass smack fo' real.
| elam wrote: |
| What do you do about Saddam Hussein? What do you do about Iran, Syria, North Korea, Pakistan and the like?If what I hear is correct, you do nothing. Or at the least, you completely rule out the use of force to solve your problems, which flys in the face of logic and human behavior. Europeans strike me as cynical and hypocritical, unwilling to confront festering problems or become proactive to solve obvious problems. This is certainly historically true, as in the case of WWII, Kosovo, Croatia, Bosnia-Hertzigovina etc., all in Europe nonetheless, so how can Europe be expected to rise to the challenge elsewhere? |
There has never been anything solved by military actions. Ongoing outrages and wars may have come to an end, but that's about fucking it. Take Afghanistan for example... the Taliban's outdone, granted, but the whole region is still far away from being politically stable or democratic. Those clan lords who control Afghanistan may already generate the perfect breeding ground for terrorism and acquiring new "martyrs" for the "cause" right now. If Bush really had the intention to do the world a favor and make it any safer he probably should have put the energy he's wasting on Iraq (estimated ~ 2 billion dollars, right?) into helping war-ridden Afghanistan to get out of the vicious circle of hopelessness and dependency without the chance of developing any sovereignty. Do not misunderstand me though, this issue is not only that of the US but the whole world. Unfortunately Bush has chosen to leave the unfinished biz in Afghanistan behind and handle another hot spot in a most dilettantish way.
Right now one thousand turkish troops enter northern Iraq despite the agreements made... about ten thousands are already standing behind the border lines to back 'em up in case the Kurdes take their chance to establish their own state in the lee of the ongoing war. We've got a potential new hot spot right in the middle of this big hot spot Iraq, tearin' up the UN alliance big time. No UN support for Turkey, no UN support for the US and lotta pissed of folks in the middle east, right around a big barrel o' fun. I don't know how many casualties this war may demand but one thing's for sure, international politics are screwed and the terrorist organisations won't never have as much backup as they could get about now... talking about fighting terrorism.
Iraq could be a milkrun, but the long-term consequences could be more fatal than any horror scenario Bush might have thought of regarding Iraq and its weapon arsenal. Let's face it, North Korea is much more of a threat than Iraq - and Iran is much more likely to support terrorists than Iraq. How do you think of solving those "problems"? "Pro-active" action against the whole world? Is any country able to endanger the rest of the world a potential target? Where the fuck shall that political route lead to? I'm glad the cold war hasn't been "solved" by taking "pro-active" measures, that's for sure.
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Svanur
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Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:13 am |
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Flat? Is that you? 
Besides my surprise you have some interesting points. I guess the world will just have to wait and see. |
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Sup_Ben
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:10 am |
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Last edited by Sup_Ben on Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elam
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Posts: 456
Location: Motown
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:26 am |
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| Quote: |
| There has never been anything solved by military actions |
Guess that depends on what you mean by solved. I would posit that wars have brought solutions to problems that were otherwise unsolvable through other means. Military action is an extention of politics. When politics and diplomacy fail, you solve by fighting. It's human nature and any amount of theorizing and idealism won't change that. Again, I point to the Balkans. How many more would have died if force hadn't been applied? I would argue that Afghanistan is much more stable then it has been in decades. Of course Western style Democracy and peace won't happen in that region for years, maybe decades, maybe never. Afghani culture is tribal and brutal. Has been that way for millennia. Same for Islamic countries. They haven't evolved to neccesitate your Western style thinking.
Does Germany have a police force? With weapons? Are these necessary? Ask any rational person if these things are needed, he'll answer 'yes', because we all know that human beings cannot be persuaded by words alone. Underneath the veneer of civilization, were animals. Force solves many things.
Terrorism may indeed be accelerated by military action, but it was spreading before 9/11 as well. Islamist are ideologues. They are supported and nutured by governments, aggravated by massive population explosions, and incompentent and corrupt governments. If the Bush Administration does this right, I think it could be a positive, despite all the initial negatives.
Pro-active, in my mind, doest not mean force. It means solutions, not obstacles. Saddam will not give up his weapons through inspectors alone. 12 years has proven that.
The cold war was solved through the threat and use of force. Worldwide the U.S and USSR fought wars through proxies and had enough nuclear munitions to annihilate the world 100 times over. The threat of force worked in that it checked the Soviets and wars bankrupted them. |
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Drunken Monkey
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Joined: 08 Feb 2000
Posts: 1016
Location: mothership
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 2:06 pm |
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| Quote: |
| There has never been anything solved by military actions |
Slavery?
Fascism?
Communism?
Violent dictatorships? (Miloscevic etc)
Don't be silly. War has solved a lot of things. Just in this instance i dont think there is much to solve except US economy and oil interests. Or something much more sinister.
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eyewoo
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Location: Carbondale, CO
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 2:34 pm |
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Many people born into freedom have inherent blinders on. They are wonderful blinders, the drug of freedom. Approaching war against despotism, they shout out, �Two wrongs don�t make a right,� as some sort of mantra against the cold reality of absolute power.
Absolute power corrupts. We all know that. Historically that corruption and repression has been regional. However, that is not the case today. Today, the resources of absolute power become a world wide magnet for all organizations and individuals who feel their agenda is necessary and should be dominant by any means.
There are many people born to freedom, who love freedom, wonderful and caring people who just can�t fathom the narrow focused black and white view of fundamental, dictatorial power, a power that can now reach far beyond it�s borders. |
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