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Author   Topic : "Importance of Howard Pyle and the Loomis connection."
PhatTexta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:25 am     Reply with quote
i havent read shit all but i read enuff to know that u should never teach wayne ur just ... so .. anoying and single minded i think a healthy mixture of both.. but i do believe someone can get by without reading a single thing.

autistic children have picked up on perspective without knowing the slightest thing about drawin.. nature is all u need. and to practice ur mind to let u transport wat u see in 3d onto a flat piece of material, screen wateva.

ay im blabbin ill shut up
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HaRdC0rePixxX
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:28 am     Reply with quote
Wayne, man, you sure read a lot of books.
don't know if you read too much or not enough though...
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YVerloc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:06 pm     Reply with quote
What a lot of wanking.
Although you are a devoted disciple of Pyle et al, you are, after all, just a student. And you'll remain a student until you surpass your teachers. However, in the realm of being a wanker, you are already a true ascended master. Don't you think that you owe it to posterity to share with the world the deep and absolute truths you have learned...about being a wanker?
YV
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Alpha_Meta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:02 pm     Reply with quote
aphelionart wrote:


it bothers me so much to the point that if someone else doesn't do it before me, i plan on rebuilding fine art. and i'll die trying if i have to. i'm not trying to be cocky, but it's about damn time for a new movement.. one that brings the basics back in to play, but perhaps retains the unleashed creativity of modern art. one that brings respect back to art. non-artists may not have a taste for the older movements, but at least you don't see them making fun of them. look how gaming and movie special effects have reached audiences... they can't get enough!

-matt


That last comment about games and movie effects strikes me as interesting since it seems a lot of the guys who are doing the realistic, physics based paintings you're championing are doing that art for big movie and game studios. Like Spooge, to take the obvious example. IMO The reason why you and Wayne Johnson seem to think we no longer have equivalents of the old masters is because their work disappears into the belly of a giant entertainment corporation, only to see the light of day as a matte painting or in an "Art of" book. If it sees the light of day at all.
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Lunatique
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:18 pm     Reply with quote
What's with all the masturbation going on in here? Create more, talk less?
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Drew
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:48 am     Reply with quote
I was going to draw but I left my rulebook at home. Sad
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aphelionart
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:36 pm     Reply with quote
alpha_meta: i didn't say we don't have equivalents from the old masters.. i think we have very, very talented artists still. Spooge is a great example.. he holds all of mine, as sure as anyone else's, respect as even the definition of an accomplished artist. i'm just saying i wish the "fine art" or "high art" (a term I hate) part of art had at least as much public reveration.

also.. just thinkin' out loud (never meant to pick a side): if you can't recreate what you see in real life perfectly, how can you recreate what you see in your head perfectly? iunno.. i also think perhaps part of the creation process is adjusting the image as you go, depending on how it looks on paper.. but when you think about it.. you transfer real life through your head before you put it on paper. That apple shape you create doesn't exist... you're creating a 2d picture from a 3d one. So unless you're modeling, whatever you draw is from imagination. That leads me to think an important part of life drawing, maybe, is you have something to reference back to so you can judge your ability to transfer the image in your head to paper and thereby know what you're doing wrong - a process of fine-tuning skills. Then you'll be able to better transfer *anything* in your head onto the paper, and I think that is what's usually meant by being a better artist. So while drawing w/o life reference still gives practice with a medium, why not get even more practice by using a reference? And all books, etc. do is help you know what you're seeing, but they help enough.

Creative constipation (as I'll call it) seems to be caused by mimicking styles and merely reading/hearing without looking for yourself. This can be avoided by anyone able to think for themself - a lil questioning until you prove it yourself - and it seems like we have plenty of those!

I think the real problem is everyone's definition of artist? It used to be that artists were seen as merely a replacement for a camera - just another manual worker rated by the skill of his craft, which was recreating reality. And with the definitions I hear today, anyone with a soul and means to communicate it can be an artist. Seems like the known "successful" artists are the ones who can show proficiency in both.

-matt
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Alpha_Meta
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:29 am     Reply with quote
Quote:
aphelionart wrote - i'm just saying i wish the "fine art" or "high art" (a term I hate) part of art had at least as much public reveration.


Like Football or NASCAR Wink The way I see it, all the cool people who are genuinely going to be into Fine Art are already into it. Bring in a bunch of fairweathers and the real fine art will be pushed aside by watered down pop.

Quote:
also.. just thinkin' out loud (never meant to pick a side): if you can't recreate what you see in real life perfectly, how can you recreate what you see in your head perfectly? iunno..


What do you think of H.R. Giger? AFAIK he hasn't done much life study, although I could be mistaken.





[/quote]
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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:40 am     Reply with quote
So after all of that was said and a few of you just called me names,
can you tell me what you know about the Form Principle and what Pyle said.

Most, not all, assume that I am trying to convert you, in fact I'm just interested in your take on the subject. I am a teacher and students feel lucy to take my classes. I do make art for a living and without the things I have learned from Pyle and Loomis and my own mentor I would not be where I am today. I do understand that a balance between the academic study and empiric study is important and do both.

One last thing before I leave you.

Art reveals a new truth or helps remind us of an old one. Not a relative truth, but an absolute one, and it speaks to most of the people most of the time.

That is the definition of Art, as I see it. That is what I'm striving for. That is what makes life worth living.

I know some people have a problem with truth, I know most live in darkness and hide from it. So be it!
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Lunatique
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:51 am     Reply with quote
Yet more masturbation?

Artists have been studying Loomis, other classic illustrators, and old masters since...gee I don't know. Since when human beings first became aware they can learn from people that came before them?

Why do you believe you are alone in discovering and studying artists who came before us? We ALL study artists that came before us--it's part of being a serious artist. Why are you preaching to the already converted?
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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:25 pm     Reply with quote
So tell me what you know about the Form Principle.

Better yet Show me.
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Andrew loomis
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AndyT
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:36 pm     Reply with quote
Wayne Johnson: Why haven't you posted any images yet?
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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:45 pm     Reply with quote
No web site. Can't link. I'll be happy to e-mail some to any who ask.

I saw your stuff AndyT, Sad
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:04 pm     Reply with quote
Wayne - what kind of comment is that? you gave a sad smiley to AndyT. I bet AndyT knows a lot more of values than you do.

I donīt think Lunatique have to show you anything Wayne, havenīt you seen his site and what kind of great art Lunatique is doing.
I think you have forgotten one important thing Wayne and that is that observation is the most important thing you can do, once you have understood the principles you donīt have to explain them with words, you will then explain the forms and values with pictures.
Also Loomis himself said that, at least in Figure drawing for all itīs worth that his books shouldnīt be followed as a this is how to do book, he just wanted to give tips to new artists and show them what kind of troubles he was going through and such but I guess you know that since you have probably read them all.

Well what do I know? I am just good at making people angry with me.

see you
Matthew
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Drew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:05 pm     Reply with quote
There are plenty of threads on sijun that talk about how to get your art hosted for free. Use the search function.
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AndyT
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:26 pm     Reply with quote
Matthew: I doubt that I know more about values! If he studied this stuff for several years ...
I just know some basic stuff ... I said earlier that I'm not a professional artist though.

Wayne Johnson: You can host the images @ http://www.deviantart.com and show them here.
You might even get comments there and it's free.
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-Gux-
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:26 pm     Reply with quote
Wayne Johnson wrote:
I am a teacher and students feel lucy to take my classes.


I felt Lucy once. And lemme tell ya... oh wai
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spooge demon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:51 pm     Reply with quote
Wayne,

Please mail your images to me at craig at goodbrush.com. I will post them here for the duration of interest in this thread.
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PhatTexta
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:35 pm     Reply with quote
ahahha go spooge
hey check ur private messages if u havent already btw.

common wayne show us ur fine art Razz
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Lunatique
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:01 pm     Reply with quote
A guy walks into a bar, where all the practicing scientists hang out at. He goes up to them, and says, "Do you guys know about the teachings of Newton and Einstein? They were two of the greatest scientists in history, and--wait. Let me QUOTE all the stuff they said. Blah blah Blah blahBlah blahBlah blahBlah blahBlah blahBlah blahBlah blahBlah blah. Ok, did you get that, or was I too smart/knowledgeable for you? So, anyway, until one of you can sit here and quote just as much Blah blah Blah blah as I did, I will not respect any of you, and you'd all look like wannabe scientists instead of real ones to me."

The scientists looks at him and says, "DUH! Of COURSE we know Newton and Einstein. You HAVE to know them if you are any kind of a scientist. Why are you here spewing all this Blah blahBlah blah? We're PRACTICING scientists. We are knee-deep in science. Hell, we eat and breathe science--we ARE scientists, got it?"

The man sniffs, and then says, "So, anyway, Newton and Einstein also said Blah blahBlah blahBlah blah. Did you know that? I bet you didn't. Why don't you guys prove to me that you know this stuff? In fact, why don't you SHOW me the papers you've written on scientific theories--and they'd have to reflect your understanding of Newton and Einstein's teachings."

The scientists looks at each other, turns to him and says, "Why don't YOU show us YOUR papers?"

The man says, "Um, I don't have a piece of paper and a pencil to write them on."

One of the leading scientists hands the man a stack of paper and a pencil, then looks himsquarely in the eye. "Here. Now SHOW us."

(To be continued)
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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:03 am     Reply with quote
I have sent my images to Spooge.

good day Very Happy
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Andrew loomis
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:47 am     Reply with quote
...Can't wait for Part 2... Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:48 am     Reply with quote
I'm too inexperienced and untrained to have much to say about this so don't put too much stock in anything I say. I see truth on both sides of this debate (most clearly labelled as the Mullins/Manley debat to myself). The 'rules' do work but at the same time that can't be all there is to art because it leaves no room for creativity. Tell me if this is an accurate simplification: one side argues that you need to build a shared foundation from which you can springboard off of into the 'creative zone'. The other side strongly feels that this 'foundation' can trap you and destroy your creativity. Is that right? What do I do as a young growing artist? Do I run from the rules and flounder around for creativity or do I risk losing myself in the rules never to find my way out? Both paths seem so risky. At the end of both there's a big chance of failure. Failure to be creative either because the rules hold me down or because I was never able to realize my creative visions without rules to assist me. Oh blimey ... sigh ...

.hethe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:27 am     Reply with quote
"There are no rules, just tools" -Glenn Vilppu Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:59 pm     Reply with quote
It's the war of opinions...
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spooge demon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:49 pm     Reply with quote
Wayne, CMYK files don't work on the web, and it is generally best to save with no spaces in filenames.

Heth, now that is something more interesting to me. I think you stated it pretty well, and it is a general problem of education beyond just the arts. I think were you fall in the debate is in your nature, so don't worry too much.


































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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:34 pm     Reply with quote
Thanks for posting my images. I looked at your work Spooge, Fantastic! Very Happy
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Andrew loomis
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Torstein Nordstrand
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:44 pm     Reply with quote
This wasn't very unexpected, was it? Shame on you people for bashing positive enthusiam... (however it's presentation)

Hethebar, your thoughts strike a cord with me too. But no matter how many artists I look up to and wildly differing styles I keep in mind, I'm quite sure my work will be very personal and unique to me. So I say suck it all up if you enjoy it, just like we all do! Very Happy

Cheers
(Oh, and although the guy behind Artrenewal is paranoid doesn't mean the site ain't a fantastic resource. So there.)
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Last edited by Torstein Nordstrand on Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HaRdC0rePixxX
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:02 pm     Reply with quote
yes, spooge's works are fantastic. and what he says makes a lot of sense too. better read his words again and maybe keep a lower profile.
we are all trying to learn and improve our skills around here. most of the people don't feel the need to test the level of knowledge of others before according them credit though.

ps: about your pics, i must confess that i'm quite disappointed. i can see some good things, but i had better expectations after reading you.
the value approach is a good one, but you also have ot think in term of volumes and shapes. ie how physical parameters (lighting, volumes, materials, "real life&3d stuff" i mean) translates into value/saturation/tint & shapes/lines (2d transcription of 3d). enough talking for me.
peace.
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Wayne Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:45 pm     Reply with quote
Thanks for your comments, I am going for a flat look and it is a cartoony style. As far as the words, they are not mine. I meerly am sharing the point of views of some of the best painters ever. As far as them being my words I lay no claim to them.

A lower profile maybe, but I still have not gotten a sound discussion of Pyles priciples and theorys, all I have gotten is jabs at my person. I am interested in learning and sharing things. I am interested in others work and Ideas.
So posted above is some of my work. Some are studies from paintings, 3 in fact, the rest are mine. They are done fast and I spend no more than 45 minuets to an hr on them. Painter Classic is my tool. Mac and PC. I am interested in color and different moods color can create.

So, after all the hubbub of the last week or so, I believe to be right where I started.
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