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Author   Topic : "Not trying to start a war. Its just a question"
LeChuck
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Joined: 20 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 5:40 am     Reply with quote
For a long time I never said anything. But why are there so many pencil scetches? I thought this was a digital art board?
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Ragnarok
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 5:43 am     Reply with quote
Its good to hear from you again.
Maybe it is because the forum has moved to art, not only digital. That's my opinion.
And pencil sketches are good for colouring
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faustgfx
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Joined: 15 Mar 2000
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 5:43 am     Reply with quote
i don't know. it's a easy and fast way to get noticed?



------------------
sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

jussi.kuusi@mediaclick.fi /
icq#35983387
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Solitaire
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 5:48 am     Reply with quote
Penciling isn't that easy if s.o. has no clue of proportions, perspective etc as you can see in many examples all over the board!

I don't think pencil sketches are that unnessessary for digital art!

just my 2 Pfennige

[This message has been edited by Solitaire (edited December 24, 2000).]
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faustgfx
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Joined: 15 Mar 2000
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 6:05 am     Reply with quote
exactly the point.



------------------
sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

jussi.kuusi@mediaclick.fi /
icq#35983387
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Frost
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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:32 am     Reply with quote
I think this forum started off as a painting forum which is based on the fundamantals of knowing and understanding how to draw, paint, light, shade, etc., a free school for those interested in learning these concepts and perfecting one's skills at rendering and creating images. Line drawings are a good basis for creative content. Of course, I'm probably way off line here.

Nice to see you back LeChuck -- =)
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StrangeFate
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Joined: 20 Feb 2000
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:41 am     Reply with quote
i'd say most people want to improve and the first errors to fix are those in the sketches/drawings, doesn't helps if you can colore like a god but can't draw even a stone.

So getting advice on the sketch is good for the final digital colored work.
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Ahcri
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Joined: 23 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 11:17 am     Reply with quote
A lot of people post paintings too, and no one has any problem with that. And pencil sketches is hard to do well, keep that in mind.

------------------
http://gameart.com/ahcri
heard that people with issues or problems in their lives that constantly complain grow more in depression and will eventually grow more angry towards little things in life that don't matter at all." --The "Wise" Man on the P.O.V.
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TheMilkMan
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Joined: 04 Nov 2000
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Location: St.Louis

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 1:02 pm     Reply with quote
The funny thing is that people dont ever really get good feed back or comments on scetches..unless you a better known artist who posts paintings from time to time...or your an awsome illustrator like vortex...or you are a female member...wierd. I think I am only going to post paintings from now on it is worthless to post scetches.
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dr . bang
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Joined: 07 Apr 2000
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Location: Den Haag, Holland

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 1:05 pm     Reply with quote
"doesn't helps if you can colore like a god but can't draw even a stone"

I like that line And i've seen alot of people like that too.
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Player
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Joined: 20 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 1:35 pm     Reply with quote
If a message board can be though of as a community then the community as a whole decides the direction it will go based on the population and the common interests of it’s members. As a point I’ve recently passed by my old high school and noticed that the dress of the students was totally different from when I attended in the 60’s and 70’s. Although each individuals dress was different there seemed to be a common theme that supported the common interest.

Just my option but the reason that sketches suffer from the lack of response is for the most part do not really ask a question. Posting a sketch stating, “Check this out” rather than asking or inviting feedback for me represents a line that I feel I do not have the right to cross. The reason that some of the more popular members get feedback might be because they are known and what response is expected from their posting is taken for granted.
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LeChuck
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Joined: 20 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 6:24 pm     Reply with quote
Frost - I never left. I just havent been posting much. (The forum is crowded enough as it is )

Ahcri - I dident say I had a problem with it.
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yoshi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:07 pm     Reply with quote
quote
Quote:
The reason that some of the more popular members get feedback might be because they are known and what response is expected from their posting is taken for granted. [/B]


Positive response to a post by a 'popular member' works as a form of validation of someone's abilities here. As if people couldn't think on their own. It's sad actually.
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faustgfx
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Joined: 15 Mar 2000
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:10 pm     Reply with quote
amen.



------------------
sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

jussi.kuusi@mediaclick.fi /
icq#35983387
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waylon
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 12:27 am     Reply with quote
It seems to me that the reason why certain sketches get less responses (besides Player's observation), is that a lot of artists just don't spend as much time on sketches as you would have to on a digital painting. Personally, I've got nothing against sketches, and will happily crit them as long as the artist puts some effort into the pic. But when it's just ten or fifteen lines in the vague shape of a nekkid girl, I usually skim over it.

[Edit: Not that I have anything against nekkid girls, mind you. ]

[This message has been edited by waylon (edited December 25, 2000).]
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Plop
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Joined: 13 May 2000
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 12:30 am     Reply with quote
Sketches are great. I'd only wish to see more of them.
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faustgfx
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Joined: 15 Mar 2000
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 12:33 am     Reply with quote
and god damn if it was a naked boy....



------------------
sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

jussi.kuusi@mediaclick.fi /
icq#35983387
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Solitaire
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Joined: 03 Nov 2000
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Location: Hamburg (Germany)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 2:44 am     Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by waylon:
...But when it's just ten or fifteen lines in the vague shape of a nekkid girl, I usually skim over it.

[Edit: Not that I have anything against nekkid girls, mind you. ]

[This message has been edited by waylon (edited December 25, 2000).]



hehe, OK does this one attract you, as there're a "few" more than 15 lines?
www.lightning-gfx.de/gallery/stuff/solitaire.gif

ah...and Faust it's actually a "boy"


(ah, and yes it's inspired by Eldar influence (even my name) - was supposed to be my skin in QII, but I havn't succeeded in 3Dmodelling yet :/)



[This message has been edited by Solitaire (edited December 25, 2000).]
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faustgfx
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Joined: 15 Mar 2000
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 3:26 am     Reply with quote
what where naked boy where?!

har har har har.



------------------
sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

jussi.kuusi@mediaclick.fi /
icq#35983387
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Speed3D
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Joined: 18 Oct 2000
Posts: 32
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 4:06 am     Reply with quote
Waylon quote - [Edit: Not that I have anything against nekkid girls, mind you. ]

Maybe the lack of contact is the problem
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waylon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2000
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 4:10 am     Reply with quote
Solitaire: Hubba hubba!

Actually, I DID have a copy of that image saved in my /sijun directory from when you originally posted it. If all sketches were of THAT calibur, well... That would be a lot of good sketches!

But still, you can tell when an artist puts a lot of time or effort into a pic, even if the final result doesn't turn out very good. I mean... some of the stuff out there, all you can really say is "Uhh, the anatomy sucks because you only spent five minutes on it." Hmm. I guess I'm starting to ramble. I'll stop now.
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Solitaire
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Joined: 03 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 4:48 am     Reply with quote
Yes, maybe you're right - it might be that some are satisfied with quick results like "oh...I did some lines - great I must show the other's", but sometimes there're starters who want to get some "pro's" comments to have an easier way through parcours of art (...that's why I'm here ).

I'm working very slowly - so most of the pics I've done I spent a lot of time on - but not all of'em are worth to get the label: well done.
Some other's I did were about...well maybe about 15 lines within 2 minutes (including two attempts) and I liked them more than other's I spent the whole damn day on
The professionals here do simple sketches taking your breath away...

So what I want to say is - it's difficult to judge there! Everyone deserves a chance!

IMO after a few posts of s.o. you're getting a quick impression what the intention of that person is - to show off or to learn and share.

Ah and glad you like it - did you also see the costume I made based pon that sketch ?
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micke
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Joined: 19 Jan 2000
Posts: 1666
Location: Oslo/Norway

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2000 4:32 pm     Reply with quote
I just had to check the forum(i'm in sweden right now) First off all, i hope everybody
had a nice christmas(i did ! I'm also
Glad that things seems a lot better here at the forum than before i left, hehe.

Just some views thoughts about the sketch thing:
Have the artist knowledge enough to put down a small amount of lines and still show something complete? Does it give the viewer a peek on how the finished result will look?
It's not about how many lines there is in the sketch. It's rather about where they are placed on the paper. In my view a simple sketch can tell a lot about the knowledge and skill of the artist. A complete complicated picture with a lot of fancy shadows and highlight-effects will not necessary tell you more than a simple sketch. Just another way of seeing it.
Sometimes complete pictures with clean shading and a lot of fancy effects can make the viewer forget about the rest of the important stuff like shapes, volume, depth. I've seen a lot of that in the demo scene for example(I've been there myself

This forum is called "Digital art"
Digital art is a medium like oil paints, crayons, charcoal, etc. What all these have in common is that the basics are needed.

What i think that i have learned most from the forum is not what program people use or what the settings on the brushes they have. Offcourse i've learned from that too, but i think it's more the basic stuff that's been important for me like Fred's head tutorial and Spooge's paint-a-cube lesson.
And in my view i think that's what people most here(including myself) is lacking.

Please feel free to disagree with me

-Mikael




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Mikael's artwork
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GlueMan
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Joined: 21 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:54 pm     Reply with quote
Well said Micke. I agree wholeheartedly.

------------------
....."Here I am"....
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waylon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2000
Posts: 762
Location: Milwaukee, WI US

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:09 pm     Reply with quote
Solitaire: Yes, I remember seeing the costume, but unfortunately, I don't remember what it looks like anymore.

Micke: You've made some very good points. Yes, you can have an incredible amount of depth and feeling in a drawing with only a few lines (or blobs of color, in the case of most digital art.) I'm sure if Spooge (as the default example) were to show us some of his quick pencil sketches, we'd all be in awe, and rightfully so.

BUT, is that the kind of thing that you can really crit? Once you've GOT the basics, there's not much more to say. Sure, you can go on and on about how nice it looks, and how you love the loose feeling, etc etc. But it's hard to give any real meaningful feedback. When a drawing has more time put into it (like Solitaire's, for example)... well, I guess one way to look at it is that there are just more things to pick on. If it were just an outline... what can you really say?

The same thing goes for people with less experience. The more time you spend on a drawing, the more detailed it will be. Not to mention you'll spend more time LOOKING at your own work, and correcting your own mistakes. I guess that's the main reson why I don't comment on most quick sketches - there's so little detail there, that the only thing I can comment on are the horribly glaring errors in proportion/etc, which the artist should have noticed in the first place.

Sorry if I'm sounding grumpy here. I don't mean to be. It really is wonderful seeing the sheer number of people on here who are excited about art. And if I had a choice between seeing five-minted sketches and not seeing any art at all, I'd take the five minute sketches any day of the week.

Vive la forum!
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garuda_x
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Joined: 30 Aug 2000
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:21 pm     Reply with quote
once a pencil sketch is scanned, it is digital. period. it started analog, is being viewed digital. technically it is a bunch of zero's and one's put together in words to make a jpeg, or gif tiff rgb targa or whatever the hell you want to make it. yeah, sure the spirit of digital art... doesnt matter what they say, its still rock n; roll to me..... wha the hell do you think a wacom is? its a pencil on paper. same concept and practices. push harder and things get thicker (or more opaque) and shit like that. tilt is and in painter things happen... ( i think, its been a while since i used painter) whatever.... dont get pissy about people posting art. its art. youre looking at it on a computer, so its digital. i start some of my work on paper, then scan and finishin p'shop, 0other stuff i start and finish on the wacom, other stuff i design in 2d then translate to 3d, then use as reference to sculpt. whatever. i hope they dont name the forum "2d artwork that is finished and done in p'shop. but by finished, we mean that is as to have been painted anbd done in accordance with osha regulations....and if you used a whackem, you have to go to another forum cause this is all mouse work. and if you used photo reference then you have to go to another forum.... and if any of the characters are from not original it has to go to another forum as well...." thats a pretty long post title. i'll moderate the one that is titled "3d work done with a wacom, based on original work, but inspired by the vast amount of work that has allready been created in the universe" if thats okay....

cheesey shit. i guess somebody's got to watch the babies.... this forum is fun most of the time... i like it. i love all of the great work that people put up here. really fun stuff. ars longa, vita brevis

_x
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micke
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:26 am     Reply with quote
Waylon: no , you don't sound grumpy at all.

Why can you not crit a sketch?
I mean if you're doing a figure drawing and spend 5 minutes or even 1 it is always a big
chance of doing a mistake. Ok, it's esier to crit MORE than LESS, but it is possible.

Sometimes time-pressure forces you too look harder and be more critical.
I remember in the demo scene, 90% were doing lot's of fancy and incredible detailed pics and spending up to a month on it, but still they made tons of mistakes. Spending more time on a pic does'nt necessary mean that they look harder. Many get hunged up in details from the very start instead of the whole of the picture. I agree that it is no point posting unfinished sketches when for example only a eye is done of a whole face.

-Mikael

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Freddio
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2000 3:14 am     Reply with quote
how is not all the art on this forum digital...

every image you see is digitalised onto a computer and uploaded onto the forum..

digital art forum..

all those pencils sketches are digitalisedimages and are art..
sorry but I know what you mean.. but all art is relative..
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waylon
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Location: Milwaukee, WI US

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:38 am     Reply with quote
micke: Well, yes, you still can crit a sketch, there's no doubt of that. What it boils down to though, for me, is that there's more to crit if the artist spent a longer time, plus I feel more justified in taking fifteen minutes to give an artist advice when he spent more than fifteen minutes on the picture itself.

Though I suppose it's a moot point when I've spent just as much time replying to this thread today as I have giving crits. What's even more sad is that I haven't drawn a single damned thing today, unless you count tweaking UVW coordinates art.

Oh and Freddio... If you want to argue THAT point... Is a photograph of a drawing photography? If a painting appears in a movie, does it become cinema? Hell... If you look at a sculpture through a kaleidoscope, does it turn into kaleidoscopic art? I tend to think the ORIGINAL medium is what's most important, unless the piece was significantly enhanced when it was converted to a different one. (IE - scanning a sketch and playing with the contrast doesn't count, but coloring it on the computer probably does.) Anyway, I suppose it's all just a matter of opinion. What I think is funny, though, is that I've heard more complaints about 3D art on this forum than I have about sketches.

[This message has been edited by waylon (edited December 27, 2000).]
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Tinusch
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Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2000 8:20 am     Reply with quote
Well, we can argue about this all we want, but I think it's great that we have the kind of community we do. There's no other forum like this on the net, and I'm glad it has expanded the way it has.
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