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Author   Topic : "let's have a civilized little talk about this photomanip wor"
faustgfx
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:15 pm     Reply with quote
facts:

0. this thread is not a diss towards anyone, nor should anything in this initial post be taken as offending. mkay? mkay.

1. i have clearly stated my opinions on it and it should be known, so i'll leave that bit out.

1a. i have said and explained why i like to use Spitfire's work as an example of photomanipulation that's well done and works.

2. first one who makes a dickheaded comment about this thread or towards anybody will be held responsible for whatever the result might be.

2a. i am not licking Spitfire's arse here on purpose, he just happens to be the first example i can think of.

3. i expect civilized text in return for civilized text.

now. what's up with photo manipulation? those of you who do it, help me understand it a bit and tell me your motivations and goals/aims you try to reach with it and the point you wish to get across with it.

you see, i do indeed hope that (refer to 'fact 0') the people who do the stuff would take one step further and progress with the stuff.

during the little time i spent with seire, i noticed 90% of the photo manipulation "scene" is prety stuck up on the one thing. why does nobody dare to break the ordinary formula? it can't be that difficult. really.

for fucks sake i'll do a collaboration piece with Splitsoul if somebody has to see proof that for example mixing the what i call "technical work" in to photo manip and other way around, (as one example), would be a step towards another direction, and change is always welcome as long as it's positive. and provided split would be up for that, which i doubt. :|

it just bugs the fuck out of me to see 50 very similar things in different texture patterns and colors re-done again and again.

keywords; change, evolve, advance, learn, yadda & dadda.

...

do indeed post your thoughts and whatnot on this, if not for anything else then for future reference.


------------------
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the law of lead now reigns!@#!/earth crisis

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Jezebel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:25 pm     Reply with quote
"it just bugs the fuck out of me to see 50 very similar things in different texture patterns and colors re-done again and again."

hallejuah :\

I think photo manips can look really cool, but seeing the same ones over and over again gets so tiring. The main ones being a typical rust texture with a pattern overlayed, then some scribbles on top of that (to portray anger I guess *rolls her eyes*), throw on a black and white photo of an old alley or some gears, top it all off with some NIN or Tool lyrics, layer effects, layer effects, etc etc...

I'm not picking on anyone here, honestly I'm not... but jeez, wallpapers like that are EVERYWHERE.

I just wish people would try something new. I know that whenever I work on art, I seriously try to incorporate a new style of technique into every piece. I try to keep my mind fresh and my art versatile. That's just me though

-Beth

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SplitSoul
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:30 pm     Reply with quote
I will comment on this tomorrow, faust. It's 6:32 a.m. where I am, so I really have to be going.

A collaboration piece sounds good to me, in fact. It's just not going to be right this moment, as I have exams in 4 days, and I have to study. But the idea sounds good to me.

I have to ask, though. Why, exactly, does it bug you so much? It's not that hard to ignore the threads that contain photo-manipulation work. Hell, we can even start adding little "[abstr]" tags in the titles, if it would stop you from flaming the shit out of us constantly.

And the next time you want to not "diss" anyone, try leaving their name out of the title and the body of the post itself.

-Split
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faustgfx
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:35 pm     Reply with quote
it bugs me because i know it still exists no matter how much i browse the net with images turned off in my internet explorer. and there's always the small seed of hope that it'll be something good.

i like concrete examples. it comes off as pretty coarse quite often, but it works. (refer to 'fact 0')

i will ramble a bit on myself as well, it's 7:40 am now, and i have to start doing work crap in a bit so i can drag my ass out of work around midday and sleep a few hours at home and return.

more about my own motives and whatnot then- stay tuned. same time, same batchannel, gurhrhhrr...



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the law of lead now reigns!@#!/earth crisis

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SplitSoul
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:37 pm     Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jezebel:
throw on a black and white photo of an old alley or some gears, top it all off with some NIN or Tool lyrics, layer effects, layer effects, etc etc...


Gee, good thing you told me that you wouldn't ever check my topics again, huh?

quote:
Originally posted by Jezebel:
I'm not picking on anyone here, honestly I'm not...




-Split
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SplitSoul
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 9:39 pm     Reply with quote
I think I mentioned sleep somewhere? Yes, indeed, I did.

'Night.

-Split
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Jezebel
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 10:02 pm     Reply with quote
[edit: misread the post ]

-Beth

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http://div.dyndns.org/beth/photography

[This message has been edited by Jezebel (edited January 04, 2001).]
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Spitfire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 1:55 am     Reply with quote
My big buddy Dave McKean mailed me a happy-newyear card with the following on it :

You know you've been photoraped when :

1. It takes you longer than 3 minutes to fully realize it is not the texture of your toilet's insides.

2. You still aren't completely sure.

3. It is not readily apparent wether there is typography used or that photoshop has a "fuck you and die" filter you never knew about.

4. There is some kind of connection to a "heavy" band but you're not sure if the band in question would be happy with that.

5. You suspect a terrible form of filter-inbreeding, yet are unable to backtrack to the ancestors because of the various overtime mutations.

6. The burn/dodge seemingly mutated to a whole new level of misanthropic existance.

7. You get strong flashbacks of other, unrecognizable, splashes of green/yellow coloured goo you might have spotted at bad parties.

8. A strong urge grows in you to make owning flatbed scanners require a Class III license.

9. The connection between the Gulf War Syndrome and contemporary art suddenly becomes much clearer to you.

10. Something's looking at you. Hungrily.

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Sincerely yours, Ive disowned us.
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Sumaleth
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 2:59 am     Reply with quote
Here are some random thoughts on the topic.

. Photomanip is a very different form of art to the illustration we mainly see around here, in just the same way that rap music is different to heavy metal. It all fits under the 'creative' title, but liking one form doesn't necessarily mean you'll like, or understand, another.

. I tend to think that photomanip fits more into the catagory of 'design' rather than 'art'. Yes, everything is art, but hopefully everyone can see the distinction there.

. Photomanipulation is just like any other creative endevor in that it takes a long time to get good at it, and in those early years you can't really see how bad your work is.

. The line between good and bad photomanip imagery is possibly finer than for any other similar form of art. On one side you've got the work that comes out of Designers Republic, for example, and on the other you have "designed mess". I think that 99% of photomanipulation falls into the latter catagory, but thats not to say that with time the people practicing it won't learn to see, and reach, that next level.

--

Personally? Photomanipulation does nothing for me, nothing at all. I remember really liking some early Designers Republic work, just because it was so fresh and different, but everything since those first few pictures have felt like variations-of-a-theme. I quickly got bored. There are almost no examples of it these days that I find myself liking.

But thats just me. I don't like rap music either, but there are lots of people that do.

Row.

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Maruman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 3:21 am     Reply with quote
yes i'll be nice and porductive. you say why did no one add "technical work" to there photomanip. by "technical you you mean painted elements? incoperating a more artistic feel?. i have to say that i agree that alot of photomanip is the same wif some heavymetal lyrics and stuff.

this is why i started photomanipulation.
firstly i was doing alot of 3d, but then my 'puter came really out of date. and i couldent really run my 3d prog's anymore so i started working in photoshop. mucked around with interfaces for a bit. then i saw some of split souls work. it really inspired me. (i'd seen photomanip stuff before but splitsouls i really like'd)so i just started mucking around with that kinda stuff, i've only been doing it for a few weeks. so i havent really fully explored the medium yet.

so i hope that maybe i and other ppl can take it in a new direction.

just my veiw


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faustgfx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 3:23 am     Reply with quote
no, with technical i mean the exact opposite from drawn and photo manipulated

me and postman are working on something at the very moment, it'll be a good example what i mean with it when i say "technical work".

[edit, i'll post a in progress shot or two once there's something worthy of mentioning in it]

------------------
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the law of lead now reigns!@#!/earth crisis

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[This message has been edited by faustgfx (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Spitfire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 4:53 am     Reply with quote
Okay, "art" is the most bastardised word in existance, so lets place photorape under that. DONT call it design unless it IS. Design communicates, 325 overlayed textures and the word "fuck" doesnt.

Example :

ART http://www.endless.org/dreamline/__lies/image/eavesdropping.jpg
DESIGN http://planetpixel.de/ie/Bilder/svarneti/svar8.jpg
CRAP http://files.deviantart.com/wallpaper/wphoto/Struggling_through_life_V2.jpg

Get the picture?


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[This message has been edited by Spitfire (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Sumaleth
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 5:32 am     Reply with quote
Spit:

Not trying to flame or anything, but thats a pretty dumb comment. Art is only art if it's good? Design is only design if it's good? No, art and design are what they are and there are varying degrees of success. Crap is one of those degrees, it's not a genre of it's own.

And-

Design communicates? Hmm, perhaps in the very literal sense, but not necessarily in the real world. The design of a car does not aim to communicate information, it's to be attractive, based on accepted concepts of design. The same with a fancy kettle.

Much of what I see in photomanipulation is trying to be attractive, not communicate information.

Row.


[This message has been edited by Sumaleth (edited January 05, 2001).]
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faustgfx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 5:40 am     Reply with quote
to return to the so called technicalwhateverwork as i call it..

this here is an example of it. maybe it's not a good example but it's a example nevertheless and should get the point through.

i'm of the school that likes this stuff. the opposite of drawing/painting.

as for the picture itself, me and postman are doing a ...thing. both make a little bit more to the picture a bit by a bit. he made the gear, i made the rest. this is the first pass. it'll hopefully evolve into something interesting and nice.

i don't know how postman did his part, but i did alot of my part by hand, with the aid of 3 very vague texturizing channels and one displacement map distortion. burn/dodge's been used alot in my part as you can see. the picture is just the beginning, remember.



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sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone/ministry
the law of lead now reigns!@#!/earth crisis

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Spitfire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:12 am     Reply with quote
Sumaleth,

Since the rise of Photorape, crap IS a category of its own. Sad but true. Throwing 45646 textures over the word PISS might be art to some, but it sure as fuck doesnt have much to do with design.

And when im talking about design, i mean graphic design ofcourse. Doh.

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Nex
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:18 am     Reply with quote
for me photomanipulators are a lot like a producer in the music business.

they have all the individual tracks on tape and now have to make something that has a message out of it.

its not hard to just put all the tracks together like they were played originally, put some reverb effect over it and call it a finished piece, because the whole thing was already there at the beginning.

example for non-creative work: http://unet.univie.ac.at/~a9627269/train.jpg

the same goes for this kind of art.
you have 5 photos and you slap them together to one piece.

what you will get is just that: 5 photos.
maybe 5 good photos, but there is not anything creative you did so far.

on the other hand: if you take the time and think of a concept.
then decide what parts to use and which ones to drop- if the whole thing is more than just "lets see what comes out when I do this" i call it art.

its pretty easy to spot when someone took time to think of a concept a message a look or whatever or if he/she just slapped a few things on top of each other and calls it art.

[side note: I make a difference between "design" and this kind of "abstract art" or "photomanipulations"- my post was about the latter]
--
I do not dislike photomanips-
actually there were some pieces, mostly done by pyrus and spitfire that made me try that for myself -however seeing artists use the same old -oh-so-l337- picture elements in different colors over and over again has not much to so with creativity.

I don't think there is an "easy" way to make good artwork. you just can shortcut some parts but creativity is not in any tutorial you can download-

/end

[edit]

I guess its a whole different thing if the artists make their own photos to manipulate them or if they just take some that were made by some pro photographer and use that then.



[This message has been edited by Nex (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Spitfire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:24 am     Reply with quote
quote
Quote:
its pretty easy to spot when someone took time to think of a concept a message a look or whatever or if he/she just slapped a few things on top of each other and calls it art.


It seems though, as if it isnt that easy to spot for 99% of the people...

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[This message has been edited by Spitfire (edited January 05, 2001).]
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kig
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 6:59 am     Reply with quote
faust: With technical work you're referring to the textured layered techy skin/wallpaper stuff I've seen enough to last a lifetime?
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napalm
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 7:53 am     Reply with quote
Personally when/if I do photomanips/collage work I enjoy combining elements of real life around me, photo's ive taken and concepts or emotions into one "snapshot" . I attempt to create a mood or convey a feeling, an idea or design concept in a fun and creative way other than whipping out the brush tool and drawing a mech.

Its just another way to express yourself, and just like digital painting, a lot of it can be complete crap. Unfortunately a lot of people see a lot of "crap" and focus on that, saying to themselves "I can't believe they call this shit art, it must have taken them 2 minutes!". It's not easy to create something great, be it painting or manipulation. On top of that there are many different 'styles' of maniuplation and collage, some of which may deeply offend any and all artistic sensibilities you might have and some of which might actually intrigue you and invite you to search for their meaning.

I find it challenging to arrange my images in a way that isnt confusing, cliche or just plain old boring; to make their sum more than the parts. Its hard, it can be fun, it can be rewarding, it's just another form of art.

And now, some "This is crap -Faust" fodder


industrial measure


switch

ive done a few more but i don't have em handy, and ive already wasted enough time at work, later!



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Nex
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 7:57 am     Reply with quote
Spitfire: well I mean.. when I see a grid background for the 11,034634672th time in a picture I don't even start to think if it has a message or not because the artist chose a picture element that is so obviously overused and thus not creative ("create, invent") that the probability that I'll find a good message in it is almost zero.

[I do not claim to understand all pictures]

but in my opinion a picture first has to -earn the right/ be worth the time- to be understood by the viewer.

when a picture is made after a strict formula
[
.open photo 1
.new layer
.open texture photo 2
.change layer mode to exclude
.change hue saturation
.add song lyrics of choice
.blow up to 1800x1600
.save
.upload
.post]

it becomes pretty obvious after some time and its easy to recognize.

of course everyone can do and post whatever he likes, but not everyone posts a piece of art when he posts a picture.

/ouch.. thin ice.. now the "define art" mob will kill me.

------------------
- Nex

..every day sends future to past, every day leaves me one less to my last- pull me under I'm not afraid.
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Spitfire
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 8:08 am     Reply with quote
quote
Quote:
but not everyone posts a piece of art when he posts a picture.


He said it.

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Jezebel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 8:10 am     Reply with quote
"Spitfire: well I mean.. when I see a grid background for the 11,034634672th time in a picture I don't even start to think if it has a message or not because the artist chose a picture element that is so obviously overused and thus not creative ("create, invent")that the probability that I'll find a good message in it is almost zero."

Nex:

This same argument can used against almost any of the digital painters on this board. How many half naked warrior chicks have you seen go up? How many mechs/gasmask images? How many landscapes? Anime?

This list goes on and on. None of the artists who posted these things "created" the subject. Just like the "wallpaper artist" didn't create the grid.

I don't think you can say that something is bad just because it uses elements you've seen in art several times before. It's the way the artist portrays and stylizes the subject that's important.

-Beth

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Nex
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 8:18 am     Reply with quote
I did not say it was bad.

It's just not fine art [this gridforthe x'th time users i mean] .. an thats (for me) something creative- with a message or a captured feeling.

[edit rephrased]

99% of the stuff I ever posted was just a drawing, not something of emotional value or with a message.

thats about what I wanted to say.


[This message has been edited by Nex (edited January 05, 2001).]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:00 am     Reply with quote
What is art/design/crap, is another matter. What I know is that I have wasted too much time trying to do filter art. There is no such thing, and if I had found this board sooner, I would have saved myself from a lot of misguided work.
I have now started with drawing, and feel that i am actually learning something.
So, thanks for the board

[This message has been edited by Gauntlet (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Dthind
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:22 am     Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by faustgfx:
to return to the so called technicalwhateverwork as i call it..

this here is an example of it. maybe it's not a good example but it's a example nevertheless and should get the point through.




If I read this correctly, you have a 360 meg image, cool


[This message has been edited by Dthind (edited January 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dthind (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Chronic Beauty
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:13 am     Reply with quote
Before i make it clear i dont do photomanipulation work, so im not biased.

When whoever it was who said photo manipulation has become boring and stuck on the same subjects. Well even if this is true i'd say thats the case with the majority of all work on this board. Thats just the way things happen here.

There are 4 types digital paintings posted on this forum.

1] Sci Fi Space ship design
2] Women with big gun
3] Women with big gun + dragon
4] Misc Work posted by Micke/Spooge/Faust, and still when this happens everyone in the forum imiates it until they make another post.

Personally i'd rather see Splits work than another piece of meaningless generic cartoon work featuring a women with over sized brests and under sized clothing.

So if repition is one of the main reasons for having photomanipulation disallowed here, then almost all work should be banned aswell.
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Rag
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:53 am     Reply with quote
I would have to agree with Chronic on this. Everyone here states they want originality, but ya keep seeing the same big tit, tight ass babes with cyborg arms and shit. Don't get me wrong, I love those pics, especially the ass parts. Sure, they are drawn well and in different poses, but it's still the same.
And in my opinion, Napalm's above work, if made into prints, would sell a hell of a lot faster than..Mean bitch with chrome skull..Unless of course you want to narrow your sells target to the 14-16 yo male teen market. Seriously, walk into just about any executive office building and you won't find 24x36 MechWarrior prints splattered all over the joint (except for game industry headquarters).
I'd say..Do whatever in the hell ya want to do, be open to critism, and don't change your art to fit the standards of others. Art in my opinion is the opposite of conformity and these forums, at times, seem to be based on conforming to others ideas of art/design. Hog wash if ya asked me...

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I don't believe in born talent, only born desire. The rest is all work.
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Chronic Beauty
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:59 am     Reply with quote
Thanks rag, thats the point i wanted to make. Art is about expressing feelings inside you and putting them onto a canvas, digital or otherwise, whatever medium or method you choose to do this is up to you. Dont criticise someone because they choose a medium you dont like, thats like a games revier reviewing a movie its just pointless.
Sure give your opinion on the work but dont have it jaded by the fact you dont like that kind of work.

The second a person attempts to dictate what is and isn't art is the second i realise they arn't trully an artist at heart.


Ps. that pic by napalm called switch or something, one word - WOW. Proof photomanipulation does have purpose and as many artistic qualities as any other art form.

[This message has been edited by Chronic Beauty (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Maruman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 3:18 pm     Reply with quote
faustgfx i understand what you mean by "technical" i look'd at your image and i've seen the same kind of thing every where. eg website interfaces

ok i know its not finished, but that kinda of "interfacey" stuff is over used alot too. i have to say that what you've done is very high quality!

another thought: i think that most of these photomainp's are trying to convay an emotion/mood/feeling. (ok just forget about the crap ones that ppl do cause its easy and they think it looks cool)
there are only so many emotions. and the main one i see alot of is dispar/depression. [massive generalisation]i think that maybe the guys doing this are teen geek guys who complain there live is shit but never even go out.. {ok sorry for the asshole comment there}<--i happen to be one of them



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teen angst is good
catgirl
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SplitSoul
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Joined: 04 Nov 2000
Posts: 336
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 5:08 pm     Reply with quote
Just about everything I wanted to say has already been said by others, so I won't comment. I will be reading, still, though.

I am just glad that we're finally having a civilized talk on this, instead of the usual, boring flame wars.

-Split
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