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Author   Topic : "Threnodizing or not"
RobT
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 7:56 pm     Reply with quote
I was surfing the internet when I came across a photo of a chick that looked familiar. I remember it because I know I had seen it before. Well I did see it but it was a painting. I searched my bookmarks and found the site that I had seen it. So out of curiosity I thought I would see how closely the pic lined up with the photo. I right clicked on the painting but the artist had right click disabled so I used the good old Print Screen key and pasted it in Photoshop.
Well to my dismay the image lined up perfect!
I can see using a photo for reference but thats just what it should be. Reference! Photos are not for painting over or smudging over so they look painted. It should be something to look at for r e f e r e n c e . Too many people do this I noticed. They paint over a photo and say "I used a photo reference for this painting"
Well I consider it tracing with color.
I thought the artist was kick ass until now.
There were more than one example too.
I don't want to drop any names just yet but it is someone who posts here and it is someone that I thought was an excellent artist. So whats your thoughts about this? Is it considered threnodizing?



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RobT

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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Plouffe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:09 pm     Reply with quote
I think it depends. Is this artist really original in his other stuff or does he just copy and paint over everytihng? WEll if he does this ALOT than yeah i think it is threnodizing or whatever. Hmm if you think he was a kick ass artist i would LIke to know who he is... But i dont think you will be sharing his anmew with us
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RobT
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:21 pm     Reply with quote
I only found a few photos that I could match up with his paintings. They were all from the same site and same model. The other ones I didn't find but I can honestly say I do not believe he painted them from scratch or used reference in the proper manner. They are all of the same quality as the ones I discovered.

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RobT

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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Plouffe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:26 pm     Reply with quote
hmm well an artist as good as you must know =) . I dont have anyting to say but i would like to know who you are talking about and woudl like to look at the pics you are talking about. If possible send me an email with the links or the name of the artist or icq me at 99261172
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spooge demon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:40 pm     Reply with quote
What if someone takes a photo, scans it and smudges it and it looks really cool?

I think the misconception is that skill in drawing is defined by how accurately you can reproduce a photo. This is the way most people think about it, and that is usually the first way to learn how to draw. You try to closely reproduce a silhouette of something you see. The degree to which you accomplish this shows how skillful you are.

Drawing is SO much more than that. If you were to take an experienced artist and a beginner and sit them in front of a lightbox and say "draw away" What do you get? Did the tracing put them on equal footing? Not hardly. Drawing is about thinking and editing and showing how you see. The skill of the artist is not disguised by having traced something. I have said it before, Drew Struzan and Norman Rockwell TRACED photos in their work. Rockwell did later in his career, and it was logical to do so. Same thing with Struzan. Does it diminish slightly my respect for them? NO. Their work is beautiful, always was and will be.

Another point is that using a photo is very obvious; almost to the point of why mention it. If you think you are fooling anyone, think again. But as I say above, it is so not the point that you used a photo or any other reference or even traced it. What is there in your image? What did you do with it? That is where the art lies.

I can understand that if you are just starting out and are having trouble drawing even an accurate silhouette of something, that alone seems like a monumental achievement. But give yourself credit, you will learn it pretty soon, and how to get your media to do exactly what you want. Itís just not that difficult for anyone even moderately serious. Then what do you do?

But, I DO think that using a photographers work, to take what that artist has done and re-present it as something new is as bad as copying anotherís painting and presenting it as your own. You see some really nicely lit and cropped and art directed photos of a ballerina with the light hitting her face just right? Copy it and donít change it much you are doing something wrong. How much do you have to change it? Thatís up to the court to decide, legally, but practically, why would you want to do something that someone even has to ask a question about? That is pretty sad.
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RobT
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:48 pm     Reply with quote
Plouffe I'll send those examples over.

Rob



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RobT

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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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RobT
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:55 pm     Reply with quote
The site had these images labeled as Paintings. He gave no credit to the original photographer either. I used to visit the site every once in awhile because I thought the guy was good until I found the actual photographers site.



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RobT

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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Plouffe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 9:06 pm     Reply with quote
Hmm first i dont really respect photographers nor do i think they are artists. ( i dont repect photographers for what they do i dont mean them photographers them selves) They have to be at the right place right time and point and click. Im in a photography class this semestre ( i have to take one every year ) and i think it takes hardly any creativity to be a photographer.

I think that people who are using a photographers works is just as guilty as the photographer himself. All the photographer is doing is "tracing" so what is the difference if an artist draws it from life or from photograph? No matter what its reproducing what you see.

I just thought of this. Why do people get all bitchy when they say they used a photo as refenrence and then people are all amazed that an artist went to the coffee shop and reproduce the people who walked on the street and stuff??

I agree with what spooge is saying . That if a guy scans a photo and manipulates it well THAT is original and creative even if its something as simple as smudging.

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Freddio
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 10:14 pm     Reply with quote
its not pierre again haha

Spooge when you say lightbox is that what comic illustrators use when inking and so on..

for tracing etc?
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jzero
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:36 pm     Reply with quote
I actually have a degree in Illustration, and I'm just now getting started at painting (...)

The very first thing I had to do in my first college illustration course was buy a camera and learn to shoot my own photo reference. The issue at hand was, you are the creator of the reference AND the creator of the image based on that reference. So no 'copying' or copyright problems arise; you get to the final product however you can, however you want to. There was no 'class distinction' made between photographer or illustrator, you had to be a little of both, and whatever innate talent you have comes through in all your work, no matter what the medium.

Crediting your source always clears these things up...

/jzero
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sacrelicious
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:47 am     Reply with quote
Plouffe, a good photographer has an excellent sense of compostition, color, lighting, mood, etc. You're telling me that doesn't take artistic skill? My father is an amateur photographer and his pictures are beautiful. His work is meticulous, time-consuming, and invested with much love and care. Hardly point and click. Furthermore, I think you've completely misunderstood what Craig has said about using photos, and on the whole sound pretty biased and ignorant. Forgive me for being blunt; this is just how I feel.

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Freddio
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 3:48 am     Reply with quote
rob T can you e-mail me who its is im quite interested..
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Gecko
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:46 am     Reply with quote
Gotta agree with sacrelicious.

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Affected
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 5:05 am     Reply with quote
Plouffe, hve you ever seen the work of, say, any decent Russian photographers? Th little I've seen mde my jaw drop.

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Affected

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Plouffe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 5:26 am     Reply with quote
hey guys sorry if you disagree with me. But point taken. Still everyone feels different. And after 4 years of photography course i have notice it takes little creativity AND you have to be at the right place and right time to take the perfect picture and that is how i feel. No one in here can change my perception about photographers or photography, I just dont consider it as art.
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Bugscratch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 5:28 am     Reply with quote
As much mayhem and trouble this might cause, I think if it's really evident that the affected suspect is a THRENODIZER, I think his name, his site and the site with the photo evidence should be disclosed. I wouldn't want to comment someone on his good work with the everlasting suspicion in my mind that he could be the undisclosed threnodizer.
However I do understand if you do not want to rush things, because someone's reputation can be so easily destroyed by a wrong comment.
That said I would appreciate it if you'd sent me links to his site and the photo evidence site on my ICQ #9954917.

-bugscratch

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sacrelicious
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 10:33 am     Reply with quote
I tend to agree with Bugscratch; haste is unwise, but it's important to know for the sake of continued trust on these forums. And I wanted to say thanks to Plouffe, for such a civil response. You're very right; we all have our own points of view.

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Bugscratch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:02 pm     Reply with quote
I got your eMail Rob, thanks.
I'm not sure whether it's a real threnodize or a real painting directly over the reference. I can't really judge it. Anyways I judge from what you said that no notice was ever given about the used "reference" so this is clearly not good.

Now it's up to you whether you will reveal the name or not.
Just keep in mind what I said in my first post.

-bugscratch


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Liquid!
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:06 pm     Reply with quote
Could someone post these? Just curious.

-c
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RobT
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:09 pm     Reply with quote
quote
Quote:
or a real painting directly over the reference.


I have always been under the impression that a reference was something to look at while painting and not something to paint over.
I consider that just plain tracing with paint.

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RobT

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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Nex
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:17 pm     Reply with quote
I'd say the thing that makes an artist "taste bad" when he traces is when he pretends not to.

I dont have anything against artists that trace pictures if they say so openly.
(and I mean before someone has to ask first)

I'm curious about those examples too I have to admit.. so if you could send them over to me per email I'd be interrested.


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- Nex

Mary, sweet lady of pain, always alone
Blind you search for the truth
I see myself in you, parallel lives
Winding at light-speed through time

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Ahcri
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:28 pm     Reply with quote
That's the problem with digital art - you done everything on the computer, so you can even use an image for paint-over. However, I think tracing is acceptable. What would you prefer? A picture that was obviously traced upon an actual photo and digitally colored, or a paint-over of a photograph where only the color of the cloths are different? We've got to respect the people who worked hard on it.
My conclusion? Tracing is kind of touchy but it's acceptable as long as the efforts are good, but paint-over totally sucks.

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heard that people with issues or problems in their lives that constantly complain grow more in depression and will eventually grow more angry towards little things in life that don't matter at all." --The "Wise" Man on the P.O.V.
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Ahcri
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 5:39 pm     Reply with quote
Oh, and I'm also curious about this piece of artwork that offended you so much, please send me a sample also, ok?

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heard that people with issues or problems in their lives that constantly complain grow more in depression and will eventually grow more angry towards little things in life that don't matter at all." --The "Wise" Man on the P.O.V.
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A.Buttle
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2001 10:31 pm     Reply with quote
Hear hear! Post the evidence.

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[This message has been edited by your mutha (edited April 15, 197-deuce).]

Joe Dillingham
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Plouffe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:45 am     Reply with quote
sacrelicious: Amen brother =)

Man i just got home from work and i thought this post was gonnabe world war 3 lol.

In my last post i forgot to say something about Jzero's post. Yeah i understand about an artist taking reference pictures for a painting and such. And personally i cant wait to take my own reference pics for my own paintings in College. But what i have a problem is people taking pictures of people or places and actually put it in a musuem and call it art. I mean ANYONE Can do that. Anyways ill stop arguing right now. Peace everyone.

Hey rob got your email and yeah you can tell its smudging =(
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Freddio
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:47 pm     Reply with quote
kill kill kill kill...

YAAahh
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ceenda
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 4:02 pm     Reply with quote
[ imagines a crew of Sijunite villagers all holding flaming torches and pitchforks outside a large castle ]

Mob justice.
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AliasMoze
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 4:57 pm     Reply with quote
Plouffe, I think I see where you're coming from, in regards to photography. I strongly disagree with you, though.

I think you're talking about being on location, catching the right moment, and clicking. But this is FAR from what a good photographer does. Sure, in painting you have to create everything from scratch. But the same elements exist in photography that exist in painting, namely subject matter, composition, contrast (in all its forms), etc. Many of these contrasts have to be created. In movies, when someone is sitting indoors, with the sunlight streaming through a window, more often than not everything in the shot was put there deliberately, including the sunlight.

I think you're judging the technical merits of photography. Look, good photographers consistently pull off compelling work. If it were just technical, then everyone would do it. Judging it that way is like the misconception of Spooge's work. Sure, it's technically solid, but is that what makes Spooge Spooge. No. It's the ideas, the contrasts, all the little decisions in his paintings. Is he always successful technically? Almost always. Is he always successful on the other levels? No.

There is more to it that I think you're not seeing.
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RobT
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:00 pm     Reply with quote
I just found out that person was flamed to the point that he left the forum but he recently came back. No need for me to drop any names as you all know him as a threnodizer anyway. If he posts anything like " hey look at my new original painting!" then I'll speak up again.

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RobT

www.gameart.com/mindstorm
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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sacrelicious
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:31 pm     Reply with quote
Let me guess, it starts with an "F," right?

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