[Max]

Hi there!

First I have to say that I don't know much about hardware at all but I am sure you guys can help me.
I need a new system!!!

What I have now is a Pentium II 400Mhz with 64meg of ram...whatever...it's crap.
I can't work with high resolution images and Photoshop loads up in about 2mins.

I gonna use my new system for: mostly painting in Photoshop, playing video games, maybe for any 3d software but mostly 2d stuff.
Since I am not very rich I can just offer about $750 but I don't need a monitor - I have two old 17'' monitors.
I also thought about a dual monitor setup but I don't know which graphic cards are good and If I could afford it anyway with such a low budget.
I heard it's possible to use two graphic cards for the dual monitor setup...is that cheaper?

These are the parts I have found till now:

- AMD Athlon 2200 1,800GHz
- ASUS A7N8X/Deluxe
- 512meg of DDR RAM
- SEAGATE BARRACUDA 60GB 7200 rpm
- ATI Radeon 9600 Pro 128 MB

I really need your help here!
If you have a better idea for hardware parts please share your knowledge.
Thanks in advance.

- max

[cheney]

Here is a guide to hardware when considering creating digital art with intention to print. Many painters tend to disagree with me about everything digital, but just about all those digital painters who are not pros tend to have their heads up their ass when it comes to anything technical. To compliment this post I have spoken with Dr. McCalpin a few times for extreme technical alternatives. He is thought to be the world leader for memory bandwidth system design.

Logos are best created as vector images. Vector images are upward scalable without quality loss, so pixel size is not relevent. As a result the image does not have to be large to print at high quality if its vector.

If its a raster based image creation system you plan to implement then you need a super badass memory bandwidth system. A raster image is any 2D image format that maps image data to pixel units across a bitmap. Basicly, a pixel is a single unit of image data containing a single color written in one of various RGB (Red Green Blue) color formats. These pixels are then spread across a rectangular grid in a color pattern representing your image.

In other words a raster image is any image that is 2D and not vector. Its just about everything digital you will ever look at. The internet only displays raster images.

So, why the hell would you need a good computer for raster images? Before I can answer this question I am going to barely tap the surface of digital printing.

When printing an image from a standard program (such as MS Word, or Internet Explorer) the image will be printed at 72dpi without any regard to image data or image size. This is why professional print jobs come out of professional software. Pro print software is really cheap, and it does alot of magic, but its also worthless if you have a great raster image software such as Photoshop or Painter.

Anyways, a pro print software package will allow the user to specific the size of the print from a specified image. The specified image will have a set image size. You can try to make the image look larger by upsizing it, but it will look like crap. It will become foggy and blurry to compensate for extreme pixelation. To better understand pixelation think back to the blocky characters of the first Nintento games. You can try to create a large print from a small image, but this will create very noticable pixelation. Since you cannot create large prints from small images or make small images larger the only way to create high quality large prints is to start from a large image.

By large I don't mean kinda big. I really mean insanely huge like comparing an apple to the Astro Dome (largest dome in the world at the time of its creation, and the first dome created larger than the Pantheon in Rome). Print quality is measured in DPI (dots per inch). Logically there could be a DPCM (dots per centimeter), but nobody uses it. DPI defines the quality of a print, because it means the amount of pixel image units per one inch of print space.

The lowest quality of print commonly used is standard text printing, which defaults to 72dpi. This resolution is just large enough to fully utilize anti-aliasing to text characters, so that the characters print out smoothly like on your screen rather than pixelated and blockly like they were typically designed. Text is typically black and white and contains no image data except for the text characters. Keep in mind that generally text characters will print fine no matter how somebody fucks up their settings because text files are vector images.

Any print where image data is concerned is a whole new world of complexity. For smaller prints such as CD jewelcase covers and smaller the minimum standard for a pro print is 600dpi. This means a 6inch by 6inch cd jewel cover should be created as a 3600x3600px image before printing without any upsizing. For most people that is just insanly huge, but really its only the tip of the ice burg. Keep in mind that CD jewel cases are not very large.

Now imagine a standard sized movie poster. That is a print sized at 20x30inches. For larger images it is acceptable to let detail slide, because our mind tells us to look less closely for details on larger areas due to how our minds configure visual input for processing perception. So, lets say a poster is a great print at 300dpi. The math results in an image that needs to be created at 6000x9000 pixels. This is starting to get pretty large. If you consider all the layer and channel data that goes into making an image at this size in Photoshop will be lucky to get a PSD smaller than 100mb.

What most people don't consider is that PSD size is not really the true image size. PSD is one of the greatest compression and data packing algorithms on the planet due to how it configures layers into a saved package. The open image will consume anywhere between 2 to 20 times this amount of space. Lets say your final PSD image is around 650mb, then when the project is open its really taking up anywhere from 1300mb to 13gb.

Now, to answer the hardware question. How are you going to move more than 1gb of data around for processing? Luckily the program will only task what it needs, so its a bit more efficient than you might think, but not much. If you request data that is not currently in memory then you must sit and wait for data to transfer from hard disk to ram. This takes alot of time and creates alot of headaches.

Now consider that most ram is not very fast. Its much faster than hard drive access, but compared to cpu cache memory ram is like a stick in the mud. Even if all your data is in memory you will still have to wait for data transfers from ram to cache.

So, you need a system that contains my ideal memory configuration. An extremely high bandwidth memory, and alot of it. Current AMD and Intel cpus can only task up to 4gb of memory. The rest is either unread or operating at retarted levels as a pagefile. In addition to this Windows only allows 2gb of memory to be allocated to each process (3gb with a hack to WinXP Pro). So, that is why you set 4gb (or less, but not less than 1.5gb) as ram. The rest of the memory you load a ramdisk. A ramdisk is software that loads a filesystem image onto memory so that memory operates as an additional harddrive. Data stored in a ramdisk will be lost when the system reboots, but if its going to be used as primary scratch disk that does not matter. Current Intel MCHs(memory controller hub, the chipset that runs the motherboard) allow up to 16gb of maximum memory. This should be enough for most users.

I have explained the benefits of having a large amount of memory, but I have not touched the speed concepts of memory. While having enough ram to store all your PSD data in memory rather than harddrive is nice, its simply not nice enough. It still takes time to move these mountains of data across the motherboard from memory to CPU. The time it takes is ultimately dependant upon two factors. The first is CPU cache size and the second is peak memory bandwidth speed of the motherboard's MCH.

In the following paragraphs I will be talking about mainstream CPU systems by brandname. Please note that I am only talking about SMP (Simultaneous Mult-Processing; more than 1 CPU on the same motherboard) capable systems.

Currently Intel is taking the greatest lead as far as memory bandwidth on smaller systems. Intel has smoked the hell out of AMD as far as memory bandwidth is concerned since its faulty i820 chipset a few years ago. This has driven AMD to leap forward with a 64bit CPU that is fully backwards compatible to 32bit instruction. This new CPU, Opteron, is designed to be at its most powerful with a 64bit operating instruction. This chip is vastly superior in memory tests compared to previous AMD chips, but is still a tad bit behind newest Intel systems. Intel's newest chipset has not been released yet for its Xeon CPU line, but it will feature a peak bandwidth of 6.4gbps blowing all AMD systems away.

With Opteron AMD is going to be moving up to a large 1gb cache size over its tiny 256mb compared to its previous CPUs. Intel has long been superior in this arena as well having a 512mb cache on all its Xeon chips since September 2002 and on its P4 since December 2002. To combat the Opteron Intel is going to release a 3.06ghz Xeon with 1gb cache that should compete quite well. What one chip has in bit path width the other makes up in with a nearly doubled clockspeed. Both of these chips are currently planned for release around $700mb.

Those are just the cheap systems for us small time artists. Intel also has chips called Xeon MP designed to be running in a quad processor configuration on SystemWorks brand MCH (GC-HE chipset to be exact with constant updated bios and bus revisions to compensate for increased memory bandwidth designs). These CPUs are very expensive, but feature up to a 6mb L3 cache with current 4.267gbps memory bandwidth. This high memory bandwidth and large CPU cache size makes for an awesome data transfer system. Consider that if you have 4 CPUs on a board is really 24mb of total cached instruction for the CPUs. As far as memory bandwidth the best in the world currently is the IBM 690 system capable of up to 16.4gbps of memory bandwidth and 32 CPUs. There is a whitepaper available to the public on the IBM website written in part by Dr. McCalpin.

At any rate when you are dealing with a block of data larger than 2gb you need to strongly consider options for highest possible data bandwidth. Otherwise you will find yourself waiting on a memory refresh and data transfer like using data off a floppy drive (I am really not exaggerating with that example).

I hope this explains more than you ever wanted to know about raster hardware limitations for print.


Update:
This was written a few months ago, and since then there have been two very large changes to mainstream hardware. First, AMD's Opteron is out and performing very well. Opteron is 64bit rather than 32bit like all Intel's products (except for the Itaniums), so it gets double the memory bandwidth before memory speed and motherboard bandwidth ever become an issue. To better compete with this Intel altered its roadmaps 3 weeks ago concerning its Xeon chips. Intel will scrap its 667mhz bus plans in favor of 800mhz. 800mhz at 32bits is equal to the current Opteron standard of 400mhz at 64bits. The AMD platform's two advantages are that its already available for purchase, and that it does not use a multiplier setting to boost its motherboard chipset bandwidth for slightly improved CPU efficiency. Opteron motherboards may or may not be able to handle slightly larger amounts of maximum memory compared to standard Xeon (DP) motherboards. But, Xeon MP motherboards can still use a vastly superior amount of memory due to the GC-HE motherboard chipset from Serverworks.
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[Max]

Man, wow, that is alot of information. Very interesting!
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

So memory bandwidth seems to be the most important thing when I have to work with 2d images...alright
I think I know everything about printing and bandwidth systems now.
Thanks again cheney, that was very helpful!!! I will consider all this info into my choice.

Okay, is there someone who knows more about the dual monitor setups?
That would be very helpful for me. Thanks!

[cheney]

The ultimate masters of multi-CPU (SMP) systems can be found at the forums of 2CPU.
_________________
http://prettydiff.com/

[Max]

Thanks again! Nice link.

[Matthew]

cheney - you are the pro and really helpful here in the forum too, keep it up. :)

Max - ok I hope you will get the most speedy computer out there. :)
have you decided which computer you are gonna buy?

Matthew

[Max]

Matthew: haha, I don't think so...I can't spend all my money on the computer - I need some books and DVD's too. And I am video game addicted so the money flows away.
I am not sure yet...let's see If I get some more infos here....

[tbone28]

All that information is great and all but you hit it on the head. You need something affordable. I suggest putting together your own PC. You will get the most for your money, you may not get the cheapest computer but you will get the best quality for what you can afford.

I recommend checking out http://www.pricewatch.com they are a great resource for finding cheap parts. As far as putting together the computer itself, I recommend finding a friend who has done it and is experienced.

I think the three things you should spend the most money on are your monitor, keyboard/mouse, tablet. Those are the things you will interact with the most.

instead of getting a 60 or 120 gig harddrive I recommend finding 3 30 gig or 3 40 gigs.

There are motherboards that have 4 ide channels. Look into these. This way you can create good software RAID which will help with scratch disk, speed, games, etc....I would go for redundence though. Back up your stuff another way.

ASUS is a good mother board brand. I have had good luck with them. As far as AMD vs Intel.. I go with AMD because of price. I have no upgraded for 6 months so, things change look into it.

BUY ALOT OF MEMORY. As much as you can 512 minimum. Worth it for painting and games.

Nvidia makes good cards. Stay away from the Gefore MX cards, they are good, cheap, ok but you will want something that supports the widest range of processes.

Get a good case with alot of redundent fans. The cooler your computer the better the performance. Be a FAN junkie.

Make sure you get good power. 350 -400. You don't want to trouble shoot power problems because they never act like it. Instead you have data problems, installs, failures blah blah.
_________________
Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

[Yuri]

(constantly edited... so hold on, k?)
Here is a site to help you.

www.tomshardwarezone.com <---- by comparing the different parts found on the site, you can get an idea of what to buy.

Buying online is all right but make sure you always review the site you are buying from. You can do this by reading what people say or think about the site. Doing this can save you a lot of problems like getting screwed over, slow shipment, etc. If in doubt, ALWAYS check their TOS, or you could get screwed over and not get your money back.

Take note that some parts belonging to certain brands just don't work together with parts from other brands. So, make sure you read up. If you wanna know why, it's sometimes 'cos of issues like the configuration set by the manufacturer, production methods, how the circuitry is designed and so on.

And first thing first, make sure you get a tower casing BIG enough to fit in whatever you want to get...lol.(This one I don't know too much about.) It can cost about US$100++ or more or even less, depending on what brand of power supply comes with it. About power casing, Leadman is not bad. Do NOT get some lousy brand of power supply, you will regret it for life if it blows and destroys your entire computer(that is, short-circuit happens and everything goes BOOM!). Enquire around. There are probably a lot of other better brands where you live, than the one I suggested since I come from Asia.

Motherboards: The higher is the cache, that is, L2, L3, L4, etc., the faster is the motherboard. It is IMPORTANT to get a better value if you want to install a lot of memory on your system. Pipe-line cache is the best to get for a cache(though this info might be a bit outdated...hehe). Do not get lower than L2 and get "write-back" instead of "write-through".

The standard speed for graphics card now is AGP 4.0 and AGP 8.0 so obviously make sure the motherboard supports 4.0x or higher. It is actually better to get a motherboard that supports AGP 8.0 as it can support graphic cards of slower speeds like AGP 4.0 unless you don't plan on upgrading your graphics card.

About the Mx cards, well, okay they may not support a lot of CPU speeds but the problem is that I think the guy has a limited budget. So, what I would do is draw up a few different computer setup lists, so that in case if he can't find or afford 1 part, he can rely on the other setups instead of freaking out. Don't bother about getting graphic cards which are too expensive. If you're not going to play a lot of games, it's a waste of money unless u're intending to go into doing 3d art too. Always plan what graphics card or motherboard you want to get first. Then, start to choose the rest of the parts based on what graphics card or motherboard you want to get. Anyway, you had better check whether the graphics card you intend to get will be compatible with your moniter. Sometimes, the graphics card has a requirement that your moniter cannot support.

For computer mice, avoid Microsoft mice. Their so-called "ergonomic" claims aren't really that true, according to studies(that is non-Microsoft funded or not written by pro-M$ experts) and could injure your hands. Therefore, try and get Logitech or scout around. Make sure you get a mouse that is big enough for your hands. Any symptoms you start to get, well, you won't feel them until the later stages. Keyboard: try and get a split keyboard if you can afford them. Forget about wrist rests and some of the other fancy gadgets. Some of them can cause more problems for you and some of them are plain useless.

Btw, warning about DDR Ram, when buying the Ram, make sure it is the clock speed as advertised or as written on the printed sticker of the box. You should insist that the people test it for you to check the speed. Also, if I am not wrong, Twinmos or Micron are pretty good brands for memory but there could be other better brands too. The speed of your memory will affect the type of motherboard you can get. So, be careful. What do I mean by speed? I don't just mean the list that I put down below.

There is also that "extra" speed feature called Clock Latency cycle which goes like this: 1.0 to 3.0-CL(Clock Latency cycle). Sometimes it is also called CAS but it means the same thing. Try to get a lower value. The higher the value, the slower is the memory. The lower is the value, the faster the memory works. But the more expensive it is. Try to avoid 2.5 CL to 3.0 CL and get 2.0 or even 1.5 CL if you can afford it. But try 'cos memory sticks with CL values like 2.5 to 3.0 can cause a lot of problems. And it will throttle the bandwith performance(someone else pls explain what bandwith performance is about... I can't remember the meaning).

Here is a listing of the various types of DDR memory and their speed:

DDR SDRAM PC-2100 memory (266 mhz)
DDR SDRAM PC-2400(300MHz)
DDR SDRAM PC-2700(333MHz)
DDR SDRAM PC-3500(434MHz) / PC-3700(466MHz)

I've listed only DDR SDRAM as you should NOT get the other types of memory like:

PC-100 SDRAM
PC-133 SDRAM
RDRAM PC-1066
RDRAM PC-800

These are the older types of memory. Stay clear from them.

I suggest you get a cd-rewritable drive if you can afford it. 'Cos 90 gb hard disk space won't last forever, it's better to store on cd roms so as to prevent tearing your hair out when you run out of space.

About cd-rewritable drives, stay away from Sony. Their drives don't last or have plenty of problems. There are some other manufacturers I cannot recall right now that you should also stay away from but Liteon is the best brand to get. Asustek or Aopen are the way to go too if you can't find any good Liteon bargains. Don't go for HP. It's expensive and you risk your product getting discontinued so you could be at a disadvantage if they also decide to suddenly dicontinue the product and also not release anymore drivers.

Also, don't go for cd-rewritable drives with speeds that are too fast. This is why: most cdroms issued by companies are burnt(recorded) at only a certain speed. Therefore, if the cdrom spins too fast in the drive, the disc could be damaged.

Floppy drives... now, actually, from past experience, newer floppy drives suck. Therefore, try and ask your friends if they have any old floppy drives that are still working. Simple: the older ones last longer. The newer ones are built to work only for a certain amount of time before breaking down.

SeaGate? It is an okay brand. Get Maxtor or IBM or Western Digital instead. Get 7200 rpm or better if you want to get an IDE hd. SCSI can be extremely expensive and I don't know if you want to get that kind of stuff.

Fans, yes you heard me: computer fans. The more there are, the better is the air circulation which will cool down your system. The more the noisier, but hell that is a trade-off for getting a fried system.

One more tip: if you have a friend who can help you, make sure he helps you clean the computer periodically. That is, once every now and then. Why? That is 'cos when there is dust, there is static. And static can kill your computer parts, even the system cables. I suggest buying a bottle of burning alcohol(the type you use to clean your wounds) for cleaning memory. It won't kill the parts. To clean the other parts, just get a brush(the type you use for painting the walls, NOT the one you use for painting art pieces, k?) and make sure it is clean and use it to dust the parts. And finally, make sure the electricity is OFF and that you have earthed yourself(to earth yourself, touch the metal parts of the casing for AT LEAST 10 secs or more). If u didn't earth yourself, do not blame anyone if you ended up in the hospital after getting a nasty electric shock.
_________________
I am asexual. Neither male nor female.

[Max]

Nice, you guys are the best!!

tbone28: thanks alot!!! The link is perfect. I have a intuos tablet and a monitor so that's no problem anyway. Let's see maybe I will buy 1gig of ram and a power of 400 of course
Thank you - those tipps were superb!
I will consider all these tipps in my choice too!!

Yuri: Thank you so much !!!!
Yeah, I know this link already, thanks anyway!
I have some friend who bought their parts online so I know which are good sites and which aren't.
haha, the tower problem is funny - I think mine will be big enough
Man, you helped me alot, now I now all I have to know to buy the right computer...what may have happened without you?
Oh, and thanks for the extra tipp of the burning alcohol.
electric shock? ...oh...now I am scared hehe

Thanks again, you are great Yuri !!!

[cheney]

As far as future DDR specs the memory industry coucil is going to scrap current DDR specs for future memory operations. Its assumed they will also scrap DDR2 which is double the circuit path of 128 bits, because of problems on adopting a certain speficication by the memory production council. There is a new even faster type of memory called GDDR3 that might come into play. There was an article about it in CPU magazine.
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[Yuri]

Hmmm I didn't know that but I think the issues you gotta consider will be:

a) how long they will take to implement it

b) what's going to happen when the revised standards are released

c) what will happen to the other products that are made to function with DDR Ram on the market.

Personally, I think this will take at least 1 year more for more news to be released and ummm... it could take even more time for this new standard to be accepted as not all the consumers are going to jump ship right away and not all the manufacturers will be able to alter their products immediately after the specifications have been released. It will take time 'cos they will need to test it and what if it runs into some problems? Sure, the companies might say "no, that won't happen" but the consumers will not be very happy if they have to swap their systems for something that doesn't work.

Other issues will be whether someone decides to invent an even better type of memory so don't count on everything to go smoothly until things have been decided on and put into place and ummm... whether the economy has recovered when this happens 'cos if the economy takes another knock, errrr... then it won't be that widely accepted and it could even disappear.

All in all, it will take at least 2 to even 3 years or even less(if this new standard is good) as consumers are starting to rebel against market trends by not upgrading that often since it's better to wait out for a few cycles/trends to pass so that you can have your pick of what you want.
_________________
I am asexual. Neither male nor female.

[B0b]

ok lets clear a few things up -

if your gong to be using XP as ur OS - 1Gb of RAM minimum (XP chews resources) i'm beggining to find 2Gb RAM (on win2K) doesn't cut the mustard sometimes so my next sys i'm looking @ a 4Gb(3.5Gb) sys

for single CPU get the biggest badest CPU u can. ie XEON (expensive but kicks the crap out of anything else out there)

MP XEONS are on the rather xpensive side ($3,000 full sys) so if ur thinking of going MP go AMD

if ur not going to b doing anything 3D - ie. playing games, 3D modeling - then get a Matrox dual head GC

if ur gonna us the same sys to play games then go2 ebay and get urself a Radeon 9700Pro some pretty good deals on ebay (the radeon series of cards gives u Dual Head capability)

Viewsonic have reduced the price of the P90f (1600x1200@85hz - 1920x1440@72hz .24 dot) to under �200+VAT here in the UK so i would think they're pretty cheap in the US as well

Hard Drive wise - Western Digital currently do the fastest IDE HDD on the market and with SATA now on most mobos when u buy them - i'd b looking @ getting a couple of there Raptor drives 36Gb @ 10000 RPM (closest thing to SCSI) they also come with a 3yr warranty - most IDE based drives only come with a years warranty now. i'd also put them in RAID 0 config (gives u double the speed and disk space)- just make sure u back up ur data on a regular basis with RAID 0

motherboards for MP setup Tyan are good for AMD they go up2 4Gb of RAM but due to the way the resouces work u'll b left with 3.5Gb as 512 is used by the mobo

like Tbone says - monitor - kbd + mouse and tablet are pretty important - make sure u have a play with the kbd + mouse b4 u purchase 1 just to make sure u like it..

Monitor wise i used to spend as much on my monitors as i did on my computer - but with TFT on the market now CRT's have dropped in price so as i said above u can get the Viewsonic P90f for under 200 notes here (damn fine monitor)

Tablet - can't go wrong with Wacom

oh and the 2x/4x/8x AGP thing - only now are 4x AGP speeds being used with the Radeon 9800 and top of the line GeForce Ultra - we won't b seeing 8X AGP being used to any usefulness for another couple of years.. on another note - older motherboards will not support 3.3v AGP graphics cards so if your going to get a Radeon 9600 (slower than the 9500 btw) or 9800 you won't be able to use them on an old 2x/4x AGP motherboard (unless the card manufacturer has used the older AGP standard)

[Max]

B0b: Thank you very much for the long reply!
1Gb of RAM minimum for XP? wow, that's pretty much, I didn't know that.
I'd go for win00 if my old games would work.
Let's see if I can afford 1gig...
I 'll go for AMD - that's for sure
I wanna play games too so I'll take the radeon - the 9500 is better?
Crazy, okay...Do all radeon cards support a Dual Head capability...also the 9500?
I am not from the US I am from austria but I think it's the same price here in europe...in england even higher

Thanks for all the tipps B0b - i really didn't expect so much help.
Thanks ALOT!!!

[Yuri]

Uh yes I kinda forgot the thing about the 8x AGP thingy not going to be used until a few years later and I forgot about the voltage settings for the motherboard too.

Also, if you don't feel secure about using burning alcohol, then use the brush method to clean the memory stick. You can also use compressed air to clean the parts that you can't reach.
_________________
I am asexual. Neither male nor female.

[B0b]

well XP chews RAM and Photoshop chews RAM = 1Gb or more (i have 512 in my laptop running XP which frustrates the hell out of me, so i'll b upgrading it to a gig)

theres nothing stopping you from putting 512 in - but with RAM prices the way they are you may as well chuck as much in as the mobo will fit

XP has a compatability feature that lets you run programs on it that will say only run on win 95 in 256 colours..

its wierd that the 9500 is better than the 9600 - but if u take the 9000 is actually slower than the 8500 u might b able to realise ATi's numbering means squat all in the naming of its Graphics cards..

yeah the 9500 supports dual head - if u can find 1.. i was going to get 2 9500pro earlier this week because u can use a utility to make them 9700's and FireGL X1's but had to go2 ebay and purchase a couple of 9700pro's instead because all the stockests here have dropped them in favour of the 9600

[Max]

Yuri: Yeah, thanks for the tipp - gonna be very useful!

B0b: Okay, so I will upgrade to 1 gig (or more) in the future when I've got more money...
Haha, yeah that's truly wired about the cards - bad trick

great - so I'll go for the 9500. Here in austria I could find one - yeah...but most stores just have the 9600 - tricky
Thanks again!

[lalPOOO]

Well, I was reading through this, and I noticed a couple of errors...

For starters, memory, and xp, I'm not sure how heavy you're into graphics, but i sure havn't found 1 gig to be the minimum for xp. I'm running on 256megs of pc133... And I do "ok". Now, if you have the money, go for 1 gig. However, your life isn't at stake if you only go with 512.

Ati's naming... Ati's naming is actually pretty sound, aside from the 8500 and 9000 thing. Howver, they did fix that, and the 8500's are now 9100s. As for the 9600 pros, they aren't much slower, and they aren't much faster, so its a bit of a mix up.

o yea, about the 9500-9700 pro. Just for reference, its the plain 9500's that are able to turn into 9700 pro's. However, saphire (the company making the modable cards) has changed board design, so its less then 50% that it'll be the right board, and work. My guess would be something around 20%.

Anyways, good luck with the new purchase!

[B0b]

[Max]

lalPOOO: thank you very much! - interesting about the turning from 9500 to 9700 pro

B0b: the noise filter took 2.0 secs
hehe, but I dunno what time the blurfilter would have taken, my computer crashed...Maybe 5 mins or so...

question: if you use two monitors, how much power does the second one need? Do you need extra ram or is the graphiccard more important?

[B0b]

you'll need extra RAM on the Video card but unless your going to do alot of 3D work on both u won't need all that much - a 32Mb Video card will b quite happy displaying on 2 monitors..

[faustgfx]

32mb = 2x 1280x1024x32bit "comfortably" *hides wrist*
_________________
"hey, wanna dance?"
"do i look like kevin costner to you?
"..no you don't"
"i don't dance with wolves either."

[faustgfx]

well, the way i'd do it, if you just want two desktops, is get your decent agp vid card, and some random 1xVGA-out pci card for the second monitor.

i'm using one 32meg pci g450 dualhead for two 1280x1024 desktops in this box (in addition to my radeon 9500 doing one and another pci g450 doing one) and the performance is considerably less than satisfying. there's fill speed issues which are too noticeable by my eye. 2x 1024x768 it does all fine, but that's the limit. one 1280x1024 it also does just fine. no idea about 1600x1200, i'd assume it'd be irritating again.

but that's pci for you. SLOW.
_________________
"hey, wanna dance?"
"do i look like kevin costner to you?
"..no you don't"
"i don't dance with wolves either."

[gLitterbug]

Altough you probably know and use it anyways I thought I get sure. For Austrian Pricewatch go to www.geizhals.at

[Max]

B0B: just 32? cool - sounds good

fgfx: Alright, so this is the way to do it with two vid cards.
I won't go 1600x1200 anyway because my monitors can't handle this res..
1280x1024 is more than enough for me.
Thanks alot for the info!

edit: yeah, thanks gLitterbug! I know and use it

[B0b]

max get urslef a Radeon 9500 and that will cope fine with 2x monitors doing 2D - or u can do 3D on 1 and 2D on the other (Radeon 9500 comes in 64mb or 128mb editions - if u can't find a 9500 go on ebay and get a 9700 )

[cheney]

Its been atleast a year maybe two since I have seen Faust around. Did Affected go to jail? What are you going to do when you become of age? How is your site/board?
_________________
http://prettydiff.com/

[faustgfx]

yes he did and he came back. didn't manage to save the world though.

my age was 3 years ago. still waiting to be let to do service myself so i could get rid of it. that happens at the age of 28, when i get free of the ..obligation, so a couple of years left still. it's something of a.. hmm. well, not quite a burden since it doesn't really affect my life in any way, but it does, for example, make it impossible for me to move abroad legally, which is something i've wanted to do for quite some time.

basically they gave me 'e' papers. that means i'm crazy and won't do service because they don't let crazy people in the military. the thing is, i will do service when i stop being crazy. as to whom decides when i stop being crazy, i don't know. neither do they. so eh. no service for me.

what site, what board? it's more like you haven't opened your eyes to this side of the internet in two years or more
_________________
"hey, wanna dance?"
"do i look like kevin costner to you?
"..no you don't"
"i don't dance with wolves either."

[Max]

Oh thank you B0b! You're the best - I will do so

interesting story fgfx...indeed

[lalPOOO]

the noise took under a second, but I'm not sure excatly what A4 is, so I did it at 12"x15" at 300dpi, and 8.5"x11"
The radial blur... I think its been almost 2 minutes now, and its still not done (at 12"x15")

But hey, I never said I was happy with 256mb
Another thing is, my ram bandwidth is somewhat limited, because one of the sticks is pc100 (and possible "bust") However, I find that I'm able to function fairly well most of the time, but I do plan on an upgrade in a couple of months. (2.4c, 512mb pc3200 dual channel, oc'ed a "bit" too )

..I think its been almost 5 minutes, and the radial isn't done...