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Author   Topic : "Speed Paint thread discussion"
eyewoo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:54 am     Reply with quote
Sparth wrote:
eyewoo: if this is really what you think then everything is possible here on sijun. i can throw all your art in the same bag, from your trad portraits to your children's sketches and give you a big old hurting theory about how much your art is empty of any soul, and speak in very general terms instead of being selective and diplomatic. easy.

duracel, i do not completely disagree on what you said, i know my limits when it comes to describing things, and concerning the narrow aspect of my themes, and once again i'm working on it, struggling, like anybody else here. but there is a way to express your feelings and your point of view towards someone else's art, you can't just generalise the way you did.
there's more than one approach to art, and doing such comparisons IS controversial, because it would mean there's just a single path possible in order to reach one's goal concerning art. and it is simply not the truth. stirring everyone's art to mullins is exactly the reason why you don't see him here anymore, as i can assure you that there is nothing more disturbing that being confronted to your own clones.
vyle, or rainart for exemple, or even neil campbell ross, are artists that have been having a lot of influence on me and my progression, far more than anybody else. i feel myself attracted by what animators do, peeps like hans bacher for exemple, whose work i've admired since i bought the mulan artbook around 97, or alberto mielgo. people that have been having progressions that are far different from what has been displayed here on sijun, where the consensus has become a rule if i stick to your earlier comment. and sorry to be honest, but you fully belong to it according to what i have seen on you site. regular round brush work, where only one image on ten really stands out from the bunch. sorry but i don't feel like i belong to this consensus.

you simply throw me into an arena where i don't feel i belong.


Sparth... I'm quite surprised that you are reacting as you are. I think Duracel's comments were not meant the way you are taking them.

Hey... I like your work. I like my work... and I also like to hear and understand how other people see my work, especially when the people put some thought into their reaction.

What you write in response is certainly legit, but why write in such a defensive mode??? Maybe its just me, but I'd thank the guy and move on...

...and why in the world did you feel the need to write about me the way you did in your opening sentence...
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sparth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:23 pm     Reply with quote
eyewoo, i've got a lot of respect for your art and even for what you have been representing on sijun during all these years. you could in many ways be my artistic father, and i've been so many times on your site in order to see your art during all these years you have no idea.

i feel things in duracel comments that are deeply unpleasing, and that are not connected to the art field. that's what bugged me the most i suppose. like when a kid is mad because his balloon is red and he wanted the bigger blue one. that's how i felt. i felt his own frustration too.
truly, i really stand by my comments in there. telling to an artists that there is no soul in his art when it is the exact thing that same artist has been trying to reach for years is really a blow, especially when it is not developed with facts, or badly explained.
i'm an extremely sensitive person. tears comes to my eyes very often, for everything which is art related. i'm too passionate. too fully passionate about the fact of finding new ways and creative approaches in the digi world. that may explain a few things too.

eyewoo, i would NEVER have done such a crit on somebody's work, not in these terms, not into this form. and therefore, the fact of seeing you supporting such a blurb, well, i just wanted to emphasize the fact that duracel's speech was nothing more than a harsh critic that served nothing.
you're probably one of the person i respect the most on this forum, and i'm sincerely saddened if i offended you. forgive me for this.

now i'm not going to lose time trying to quote parts or even defend myself even more, as i think i have explained my point of view more than enough.
the more these sorts of discussions happen, the more peeps get into private forums and do their things from the inside, with the artists of their choice. and even though there is something very elitist in a closed forum, it does also mean that maturity and respect is always going to be present in every new post, as well as quality. quality means better stimulation and friendly competition.

now i'm out of the blurb. sorry if i offended anybody else.

sparth
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Sumaleth
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:13 pm     Reply with quote
The same sort of thing happens on closed forums too, and it's always awkward for a while but I don't think anyone will remember what it was about a month from now.

For what it's worth, I dig where sparth's taken his style lately. Finding that ground between design and illustration. Guess Dura hasn't been so keen. Oh well, each to their own.
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Jabo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:36 am     Reply with quote
Sorry, but the whole discussion is really poor. Being a big fan of Sparth's art, I was really astonished to see someone talk like that about it. I'm not one of the sort who says that you can't criticize someone popular, but the way this critique was given was complete non-sense, where it should have been constructive.

I don't get Dura's point. I don't even think it has one. So what are we talking about? Personal taste? Jealousy? False interpretation? Sounds like a mixture of it all. And that cannot be a base for a discussion, really.
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Mikko K
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:41 am     Reply with quote
Jabo: Exactly. More like accusations, to be fair.
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-HoodZ-
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:19 am     Reply with quote
Jabo wrote:

I don't get Dura's point. I don't even think it has one. So what are we talking about? Personal taste? Jealousy? False interpretation? Sounds like a mixture of it all. And that cannot be a base for a discussion, really.


agree its all blah blah from what ive read....at least post a pic in the speedpainting thread, all that did was light a spark
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Jabo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:13 am     Reply with quote
Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing Dura for being a jerk or something, I just think the discussion that has formed around it should not have risen. It's between Sparth and Dura and there's not content for us - the audience - to participate, if not for sheer fan-boying. That being said, if the two want to fight it out publicly, I'll retract my comment and die in hell.

Greets,
Jannis
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Capt. Fred
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:30 am     Reply with quote
This isn't a discussion, it is an argument.
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Jabo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:45 am     Reply with quote
Whatever. So.... who wants a hug?

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Affected
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:27 am     Reply with quote
You know, without commenting on the actual validity of the critique in question, no critique warrants getting angry. It just doesn't help. If you get told your piece is a turd and btw, your mother sucks cocks, why get angry? The only critique that can hurt you is one you agree with, and in that case you should really listen to what is being said. Listening (or reading, in this case) in general is a good idea. Listen, evaluate the claims being made, and act according to your evaluation. If, after thinking about it calmly, you don't agree with the critique, then ignore it, or post a "thanks, but I don't agree", or if you want to discuss the matter, include a "and here's why". If you do agree, you know what to do. Anything else is just energy wasted.

I get the feeling Duracel's post came from a more general frustration at a perceived lack of critique here, and he may be right. I don't remeber seeing all that much discussion of work beyond "that brushstroke there is a bit off" and "the knee is a little awkward" etc., very little "why did you do this?" and "what are you saying here?". Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't been very active on this forum recently, so I might just have missed the good stuff.

One last thing: Duracel, you said you see a lot of things you could critique, but don't, and instead "let it go"... Maybe it would be a better idea to bring up the issues you see when you see them instead of letting it all get pent up and then ripping loose in a sudden blast like this?
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Tomasis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:43 am     Reply with quote
many wet kisses :) between duracel and sparth to be nice friends ;)
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Mikko K
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:18 am     Reply with quote
Affected: It's not about critique which is usually fine, but more about questioning one's motives for creating art in a manner that can really piss off any artist who puts time and thought into his work. You may need to put all your spare time into it to understand fully.

Simplified example: "you have so much talent so why you do this kind of crappy, non-realistically-rendered stuff, while you could lead us to spoogeland?"

These are all subjective views, and while anyone is entitled to their opinion, I know it's annoying to be in the position where suddenly everyone seems to think it's okay to bash one's motives for creating art.. Sparth doesn't need this forum to make money, or get new jobs or anything. I think the overpaint he did was just some simple guidance, not some work of god that suddenly makes him a target for these accusations.

Why I write here at all is that this argument reminds me of a time when someone ripped my stuff at CgTalk. Most of the people were calling me an oversensitive snob for mentioning the rip in his thread. It's the mentality that annoys me. Why the fuck should anyone bother helping beginning artist if there is no mutual respect over the forums?

It's not like this is the most serious thing that has ever happened, and maybe people tend to take things very literally online, and take lightly given comments too seriously.. but still, I don't think Sparth needs to explain his reactions.
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Affected
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:37 am     Reply with quote
Actually, I think it's important to have your motives questioned. That's what matters, all the technical stuff is just icing on the cake.
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eyewoo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:08 am     Reply with quote
Well... I thought I was finished with this discussion, but I got to make an addition. I'm not a person of many words, so I'll keep it short. If you are in a business that pretty much depends on the subjective acceptance of others, i.e. an audience, then it is probably best to work out ways to deal with both positive, negative and just quizzical responses in such a way that forward movement is the result. In visual art, the point would seem to be the creation of a presentation of one's skills and ideas to a viewer. That viewer, whether he be a fellow artist or lay person, is going to have a respondent viewpoint.

Last edited by eyewoo on Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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octavian
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:00 pm     Reply with quote
Wow, is it really this serious???

One cool thing out of all this is I'm reading some interesting points of view on how to take crits. I just can't get over the fact that individual personality and ego are being glossed over. I mean, isn't everyone different? Products of different backgrounds? Don't we all bring our own personal baggage to the table, thus making us respond differently? So by that logic, doesn't Sparth have the right to respond how he wants? I can see valid points in Duracel's "crit", but the underlying tone seemed harsh and naive to me, something Sparth pointed out rather eloquently. But in saying that, I'm further illustrating my point, I probably would have taken it the same way as Sparth, but then again I can be a little high strung and dogmatic at times. Thats just me. Who knows why Duracel and Sparth respond the way THEY do. But it's not really anything for us to judge in such an anonymous place as this, is it?

ah well, discussion is good food for thought no?
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Affected
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:04 pm     Reply with quote
Just to clarify, I don't mean to judge. Anything I say is purely personal opinion, how could it be otherwise? Of course everyone has the right to react as they will to critique, my point is simply that it a person will make things easier for themselves if they stay calm.
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octavian
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:27 pm     Reply with quote
probably true, but where do you draw the line over what is acceptable and what is not? Is that what is being hashed out here? At what point does a person feel obliged to respond to seeming insult?

btw, I like what you've said affected. Just wanna hear your philosophical thoughts on this.
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iandredd
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:28 pm     Reply with quote
Affected wrote:
Just to clarify, I don't mean to judge. Anything I say is purely personal opinion, how could it be otherwise? Of course everyone has the right to react as they will to critique, my point is simply that it a person will make things easier for themselves if they stay calm.


I was impressed by how calm and eloquent Sparth's replies have been. I think there is a difference between honest critique and what Duracel posted. I've seen other posts in the past where Duracel has delivered his opinion with little tact. I think it's a shame as some of what he says is useful as Sparth himself admitted. You can give a brutally honest critique without being pejorative.
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Mikko K
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:56 pm     Reply with quote
Affected: I appreciate your thoughts here. I'm trying to picture myself in someone elses position. I know if your sincerity for doing what you love most is questioned, it hurts more than some random crit on the work itself.

If you ask a professional architect "do you even think about the people who have to live in your building?" -type questions, it goes beyond merely criticizing. I'm not sure if you catch my drift here, but this is about the only thing I'm so passionate about to even bother. I spend most of my time doing stuff related to this craft, and I'm surely supporting to everyone who really does it as a profession, since it's not easy. I think all the great artists I've met question themselves almost too much.

Eyewoo: Good point. I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider these forums my primary audience. I think ideally, this would be a more equal place, and I would not lash out on someone who's not my teacher or in anyway responsible for my personal frustrations.. I think this is a more unofficial place where people can show their true face instead of giving some marketing speech like you would for a magazine. To keep that kind of environment, I think everyone should be fair to each other.
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Capt. Fred
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:41 pm     Reply with quote
This situation only really stands out because this place is normally such an oasis of gentlemanly and civil behaviour. I think if we mark down one idiotic tirade against Sijun's sea of levelheadedness we are still ahead of the crowd.

Three cheers for the users of sijun forums.

My sympathies to sparth and eyewoo who were collateral damage of this hot-headedness.

Affected: People have emotions.
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Jabo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:10 pm     Reply with quote
Interesting, but the moment I read this ("This situation only really stands out because this place is normally such an oasis of gentlemanly and civil behaviour."), I discovered why I feel rather comfortable around here compared to other big platforms. Thanks for bringing back this memory. I've been spending more time admiring the sp-thread over here than I've spent on the whole "awesomeness" of other boards. And it's not especially the art posted, because I can find it anywhere else on the internet, but the people around here are more adult and reposeful on sijun. Even this argument is way below other communities on the penis-size-o-meter.

Cool
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Freebooter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:38 pm     Reply with quote
>Jabo and Capt, you're mistaking tediousness for civil behaviour.


Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of this 'if you ain't Mullins you ain't shit' attitude some here seem to have. Not to drag him down there are many talented digital artists that have some other merits than being a bloody awesome painter. Some people have more graphic approach to digital art, to mention Sparth and Vyle in example, and their art should be weighed on entirely different background than Mullin's and Cicinimo's and alike.

It's like comparing Sargent and Yoshi Shinkawa (Metal Gear Solid artist, for those unaware), incredibly stupid and entirely pointless.

PS. I didn't actually read much of that Duracel-Sparth argument at Speedpainting thread so don't come yelling if my post is entirely beside the point.
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Affected
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:33 pm     Reply with quote
octavian wrote:
probably true, but where do you draw the line over what is acceptable and what is not? Is that what is being hashed out here? At what point does a person feel obliged to respond to seeming insult?


Honestly? I don't know. It would depend on the person. For myself, that's almost never. I don't remember when I've been insulted and gotten angry last. Probably in grade school, it's just not me nowadays. I know often when someone is insulted and comes to me for support, asking if they're right to feel slighted, I usually can't feel that strongly about the issue, and just muster a "that was pretty rude, yes", or something like that. And it's odd, I'm a pretty empathic type of person, I can gauge how people will react to things quite accurately, but getting angry I can never really understand, even if I can predict it will happen. It just doesn't make any sense to me, there's no logic. I guess that's the point of emotions of course, but in the case of anger due to people being retards... Well, mostly I just don't have that emotion for that situation. So that's my background for what I've said here. Maybe I'm just wired differently, I can't truly understand it when emotions override a person's rational thought.

Oh, another clarification: I did also think Sparth was quite civil and thoughtful in his replies, I do not mean to direct my words at any particular person except where that is explicitly stated. I just felt this discussion was close enough to sound off a bit on this subject.
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Tinusch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:17 pm     Reply with quote
Just a rant:

Just read through the original argument for the first time... I don't think it's fair to call someone's style a "bad habit" perpetuated solely for praise. And I also wouldn't call someone's style invalid because it isn't what Mullins does. I don't think you have to paint every little object that exists in the world you are painting - I personally prefer the subtleties and suggestion present in paintings like Sparths - where it's implied and not directly stated, giving your imagination the freedom to paint in what you want to see. It's a drastically different approach to what Mullins does, but Mullins isn't the yardstick. It's all subjective. Just because it isn't Mullins doesn't mean it's an exercise in futility. People lapping up Sparth's work by the masses is incidental - you can't fault him for that. But I see in his work endless creativity and freshness - his knack for color and sleekness and forms and depth are incredible to me. By the same token, Mullins' impeccable renderings of lifelike objects and people and action with just a few masterfully-placed strokes are equally inspiring. People paint for different reasons and with different goals. Sparth is more graphical and stylish, while Mullins is just raw realism and immersion. Sparth's work is sharp and tight, while Mullins' is loose and alive. How can you fault one for not being the other? Can you fault cubism for not being impressionism? I guess I'm just rehashing what everyone else has said already - there are different approaches to art, and you don't need to follow any one path to greatness.
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skullmonkeys
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:01 pm     Reply with quote
*shrug. To me it looked like a thoughtless personal attack thinly disguised as a 'critique', coming from a guy who is obviously stressed about missing his hero a little too much.

I refuse to give any more credit to someone who thinks everyone else is too stupid to know what he's actually talking about.

eyewoo, about what sparth said. I doubt he meant what he wrote there literily. I'd say he was just giving an example of what he felt like. Sure, your work may not be everyone's cup of tea but when one looks at it, they can definetly sense the dedication and appreciation you have put in your work.

Which is why I don't think of his apology above is based on some kind of mood swing. It was very sincere.

/endrant
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octavian
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:39 pm     Reply with quote
Affected wrote:
Honestly? I don't know. It would depend on the person. For myself, that's almost never. I don't remember when I've been insulted and gotten angry last.


This is exactly what I was getting at. Your insight about taking crits well was a good read. but it seemed a bit assuming, don't you think? Sort of like you were implying that everyone should behave as you do. Which, as I'm sure you know, is simply not possible. You're truly blessed to have a Zen-like emotive state. I'm certainly jealous Smile

I only jumped into this discussion because, as people naturally do, they start taking sides. Which only indicates that were all different, and some people have the capacity to tolerate insults, while some people feel the need to defend themselves. Sparth's art is VERY personal for him. Now here I go being assuming, but I think it is an exploration of his mind. An outlet to find his inner aesthetic. And when someone comes along and pisses all over his work, it's like pissing on him. I can understand why he felt compelled to defend his work. it goes WAY beyond even proving that he is capable of producing really boring, overly detailed work. It's about pointing out that his art is a visual representation of who he really is, transcending anything he could verbally communicate. As Walter from the Big Lebowski so eloquently put it, "I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand... Dude, across this line you DO NOT CROSS!"

Ah fuck it, who am I to represent or defend anyone... it goes against my own principles really. Thanks for chatting with me anyway Affected.

Anyway, there you go. I felt compelled to pursue this whole discussion of principles because it is interesting and I am actually learning something by verbalizing it with you all.

So, so long and thanks for all the fish.
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