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Author   Topic : "Is it bad practice to paint over a wireframe scene?"
ceenda
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Joined: 27 Jun 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:56 am     Reply with quote
Hi there. Happy New year everyone!

I've been trying to work out a scene in my head but when I go to put draw it out I often don't get quite the right perspective and other aspects that I want to have in the pic.

I had thought about doing the scene roughly in 3DSMAX and then painting over it in either Photoshop or Painter but I wondered what the art purists thought about this?

I've heard spooge say once or twice that he uses a 3D package to get the basics of a scene put in.

I guess I'm a bit worried that doing stuff like that is bad practice for someone who is learning to do complex scenes from scratch.



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Zoso
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:59 am     Reply with quote
Actually this is a pretty good idea IMHO. I often lay out my grid of perspective lines and such by hand, but using a 3D or CAD prgram sounds like an excellent idea. You're still doing the work on your own, the program is just making your life a little easier.
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endrigan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 1:21 pm     Reply with quote
thanks for asking this ....I was just about to before Dhab closed down .

were can I get a simple 3-d modeler for free?
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hydrid
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Joined: 20 Jan 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 3:51 pm     Reply with quote
Hmm.... what about painting over a Poser wireframe? I've thought about that when I do full body images as often I mess up the proportions of legs and feet specifically.

This is a good topic!
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Guy
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Joined: 29 Feb 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 4:01 pm     Reply with quote
ive done this before a few times. when i do a medel in 3d i usualy just start working on it in max right away. i find it easier then drawing out ideas. so i would take a render of the low poly model i was working on and draw over it, but of course id make it smoother and then id add detail to the surface. stuff that would later be done with textures. kinda helps to see what would look good on the model bofore you go ahead and make a bunch of textures for the thing. plus no one really has to know that you drew it after you modeled it hehe

but yeah i do that, so its fine i would think. like zoso said, you still modeled the whole thing so its not really cheating, just makes things a little easier (for me anyway)
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Anthony
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 4:31 pm     Reply with quote
Yes, I do this, and can't see any problems with it, unless you don't understand perspective to start with. It's simply faster for me to model the layout of an area or building and get an angle/lens I like. I wouldn't recommend it with Poser, however, because Poser isn't very good, IMO. If you can't draw figures accurately, you must practise until you can!

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Freddio
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 7:13 pm     Reply with quote






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Muzman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 7:43 pm     Reply with quote
well, perspective is fairly easy to understand, but its not that easy to do. I have a hell of a time with it (actually I think everyone has some trouble with it. Ive just got some idealised notion of the Masters spashing away with such ease that it makes me look so slow and feeble. Which I am, but anyway...)
Sometimes though, you've just got to get something done! Any-old-how. You don't want to spare 5years to become an expert before you start doing the things you dream with your art.
So I say, if you haven't given up learing perspective and your aim is still to oneday not need a 3D program layout all the time then you're in the clear.

[This message has been edited by Muzman (edited January 02, 2001).]
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Rinaldo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:00 pm     Reply with quote
Muz pretty much said my thoughts on the matter.

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Wyatt Turner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 12:00 am     Reply with quote
just do it! don't let people stop you from doing what you think would be cool. I tool have plans for doing the same type of thing, it still is a difficult process. I tried this the other day. I made a simple gray scaled image of a mech in a cargo bay. I started to rough. I think the idea to select many areas and save them. this will help out in the detailed process.

good luck, I'll be joining in on this process tool.

later
y@

[This message has been edited by Wyatt Turner (edited January 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wyatt Turner (edited January 02, 2001).]
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sacrelicious
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 12:28 am     Reply with quote
It sounds basically the same as sketching out your ideas with a pencil. I say go for it! Plus, I can't wait to see what this "complex" scene will be...

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mmm... sacrelicious
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eetu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 5:05 am     Reply with quote
One thing you should watch out for is the lens model used in 3d programs - it's a bit of a simplified version of the real thing.

Straight lines remain straight lines when rendered, but in real life they become curves.

If (when) I'd do it, i would model an actual lens in 3d and raytrace thru it with refractions turned on. (Might depend a bit on which program you are using)

eetu.
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Bg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:23 am     Reply with quote
This was done for 3D Palette's Post apocalyptic contest. I made the pose and perspective in Poser and then painted over him and did the background. I wouldn't recommend Poser if you just blindly draw over the model (as I did), because it makes things look too stiff... but for composition 3D packages are useful.



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ceenda
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Joined: 27 Jun 2000
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 2:47 pm     Reply with quote
Wow! Thanks for all the replies people.

endrigan: Do a web search for a package called MilkShape. I think it's still shareware. Also, I heard that there was going to be a free version of 3DSMAX released some time.

Freddio: Nice pic and tut as well!

eetu: Can I do that in 3DSMAX?

Bg: I demand more Bg pics on Sijun.

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Nicholas Anderson
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web: Flying Islands
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..::sketchboard.co.uk

[This message has been edited by ceenda (edited January 03, 2001).]
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samdragon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 5:39 pm     Reply with quote
hmm, that's a good point. I don't see anything wrong with it either. I do it myself if I want a strange perspective or have some kind of building that I want to vanish off into the distance.

That's not to say don't learn perspective. Sometimes you'll want to create your own perspective and only use the wireframe as a guide.
I have an example of how I used a wireframe if ya want to see it.
http://pennygraphics.com/samdragon/3Dgallery/gallery3/avalonwire.htm

good point eetu, I never thought about that draw back of the curved perspective.
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quaternius
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2001 6:05 pm     Reply with quote
endrigan -

Since I do a lot of architectural illustration I hafta use 3d modelers all the time to set things up.

For a shareware polygon 3D modeler you can download; that isn't half bad, try Milkshape 3D. Surprising what you can do with this one.
try this: http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/ms3d1x/

I think you can also download some demos for Rhino and form*Z. You'll have a bigger learning curve with these two, but I like 'em better than 3D Studio Max, which I use also. Call it a personal choice, but I find form*Z to be the quickest modeler; though not the easiest to learn.

Good luck.

Q
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redix
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2001 1:36 am     Reply with quote
im just curious, how do you get a 3d model, then just paint over it in photoshop?

-redix
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Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:11 am     Reply with quote
redix: render it out and open the image in photoshop and start painting away
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