[faustgfx]

you guys ever hear of sperm?

[X] Say NO to afterlife.
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[Matthew]

Gort - I have actually seen those but I think Ghost is way better, it has this mystic all from the beginning.

With this life thing, the only thing they saw was that there was brain activity after the death, I guess there is, but that doesn�t mean that the there is a afterlife.
What I think is that the cells stops dividing and it takes time for that process even after you died, all of this is just speculations and I think it will stay at that level for all time.
I saw a movie once where they frooze themselves to death too find out what happened when you dies, but I guess the time after the actual death is only signals from the brain, hmm someone will never know.
The greatest mystery of all lies within ourselves and if we find out maybe we can solve a lot of other things.

No offense to you Awetopsy but I have a hard to time to believe in these Bible stories, God made that and God did so and now he does this and then he did that? what�s up with that? .
To explain the Bible I think what they meant from the beginning was that God represents the good or should do anyway and the evil was Satan and represents the evil in man just so something with great evil can be explained.
Isn�t this Bible thing just an attempt to explain what seems unexplainable and if you are satisfied with it I guess it works, but not for me.

What I have thought about a lot is what purpose has Man? Why are we here and where did we came from?
Think about this, Even the sun will die, does it mean that the Sun has an afterlife? Even Universes Collide does that mean that they have lived before?
I can�t remember who said it, but the purpose of life according to him was that the true meaning of life was to be happy. maan that seems to easy for me do we have to be happy all the time? and do we have to be angry all the time? I think the Middle is the best in all situtations.

Maybe the time is a big issue, if there is an afterlife maybe everything is replayed? Maybe we are in a loop? That�s why I liked The Matrix so much, it has this explanation to some things that has been thought of for a long time, for me anyway, Deja Vu feelings, I have them a lot, does anyone of you?
I think we will be able to travel in time, that�s just a matter of time and time is all we got and time is why we are here otherwise we would go back in time and maybe we sometimes are?

Well, don�t think I have anything more right now and I guess you think that, that is a strange dude, if you thinks so it�s ok I guess I will never find my answers anyway. Maybe the answer is too simple and when you know about it you just wanna go back.
Like the say in the Animatrix, -"I sohuld have taken the red pill instead" ( or hehe, was it the green?) ...hehe.

The Apollo Project was a Hoax?
Matthew

[Gort]

[Awetopsy]

Matthew, You're entitled to that.

I see it this way, Many different people and religious sects have tried to translate the original text of the scriptures. I can certainly see how surface-level reading of a flawed translation of the original text of the bible can lead many people to think "wha?!?" but I believe that when you delve a little deeper and take the time to reference back to the original text to get what was being said in a passage, then it starts to become more than just stories and fables, but rather becomes a life changing experience.

But you certainly dont have to agree with me. Thats just my opinion, which I am basing on my experience of doing just that.

The thing that gets people is this, What if you could have a relationship, a freindship with this God, who has a personality, a consious being who actually did "make man in Gods own image"? What if that relationship with God wasnt just for a select few but rather for anyone who wanted it.

[Sumaleth]

Wow, how stupid is that website? They photograph the heat given off by cells when they die and they call it proof of the afterlife.

What if a leaf falls off a tree? The cells of the leaf will give off the same signals, so maybe that's proof that the leaf is moving to the afterlife. A place where there is no autumn or catepillars, and no one is allowed to invent a chainsaw.
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[Nimr0d]

Honestly. I refuse to take seriously anyone, especially supposed scientists, who can't use proper grammar.

Oh and I must be shooting 'wavicles' in all directions cause I can fucking point at certain lights and blitz them out. I must get them from my Mom - she exudes some sort of wack electromagnetic fields because she can't wear a watch without it stopping a few days later and any lights she works near always go out. They have to rotate her position around the bookstore every few weeks to save on lightbulb costs.
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[Hyperi0n]

Some people might interpret this new trend of disbelief in afterlife and religion in general as a result of more freedom of thinking. I believe it's a result of people becoming more pessimist.

[the_insider]

im gonna have to disagree with awetopsy too....the bible is more credible? i think the bible is the least credible thing invented..(other than some parts about morals and ethics) but for the aspects of how earth was formed..afterlife....how humans were formed...blah blah blah...it's like reading a fairytale book...everything in the bible revolves around humans and i think there is other life out there...its really hard to believe "god" puts all his time and effort into developing the world which humans live on...what about the endless potential number of life forms in the universe? dont THEY get a god?? i just think that sometimes the world needs to grow up from all this trust in a book written by people who didnt have any other explanation back then
------------*i say no to afterlife....the brain is physical...when THAT dies, EVERYTHING dies.
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[Drew]

If we're made in God's image, what does that say about God? Or, do you mean we're physically in his image? What does he need a body for?

[Spooky]

And what of all the ancient greeks, romans, native indians and those who all believed in a different god or set of gods? Were they wrong? Misinterpreting? And are Hindus, Muslims and others wrong because they don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god? Will they not go to a 'heaven' because of it? Are there multiple gods, muliple heavens and multiple hells if they are all right - one or many for each religion? I never could get past these arguments. But, I believe something created us. And I won't rule out life after death because we just don't know.

The Bible has always 'felt' to me like a collection of tales told by somebody and as we know tales can be warped over time and for different purpose. I will freely admit I'm not a scholar just a skeptic when it comes to people professing which religion and way of life is superior. I mean Bush will say "...and may God bless America", yet Saddam or others will say "...and God is with us." Are there Gods out there battling for us like a chess game. It's too darn confusing to think about. So I try to just do what feels right and for the most part, avoid religion.

Maybe heaven is as real as we can manifest it when we die. Maybe we keep re-running this same life over and over again. Either way, when we're deceased, we'll know. Or won't know.

Myself, I just try to follow the golden rule and be nice to others and treat them with respect. I've grown up that way and it's never failed.

It'a disheartening to see so many people disbelieving in life after death though.
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[Awetopsy]

[Matthew]

Hello

I think we have a good conversation here.

If God then had to make a book you can agree that - that book now is hugely exaggerated.
I mean we live in the year 2003 and Media nor news can be trusted, everyone gives their own explanation and sometimes the explanation is fiction, Why should the Bible be anything different? The Bible has been added with information later on and those stories must to me been as said before hugely exaggerated.

I don�t believe in the spirits and other God�s either.
If someone shows me God I can consider to believe in him.

Matthew

[Max]

God exists for people who believe in it.
For people who don't believe in god he doesn't exist...

God isn't something you can see feel hear etc....
At least not for people who don't believe in it.

God is (like everything else we can't see hear smell etc) a product of our minds nothing else.
But that's enough to believe in it. Sure, he doesn't exist as the man with the white beard - human beeings need images for everything...

Humans have ever need a special religion/god/etc to believe in.
And that is one of the biggest reasons for war.

The bible is a bit older then the media, Matthew.
Most of these things have a true source. (I think)
But they are hugely exaggerated like you said.....that's true of course

[ceenda]

[SolarC]

Many people tend to be often very dogmatic about their opinions. Especially when it comes to religion or other major things about how to view life or the world. This is totally understandable, because all of us would like to have some proof or certainty to back up our own views. All of us feel a bit unsecured about these things in some level, I think. There just aren't any plain simple answers available. This might sound like I'm just telling you the obvious. The reason why I brought this up is because this dogmatism usually makes a constructive discussion impossible and people just start to lose their temper and insult oneanother. These reactions can be seen in sijun in almost all topics concerning these difficult questions.

[Awetopsy]

[Drunken Monkey]

[Dr. Bang]

i got this from some where i completely agree with it.

"religion was invented to give early man a reason not to brain his friend and rape his wife."
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[Matthew]

Hello

First of all I respect everyones beliefs and are not trying to convince anyone to be more religious or less religious.

Solarc - you are right about that these things can turn out into flaming but let�s not.
Maybe we are running in the sand with telling eachother our views without backing an inch but nevertheless it�s an interesting thing why someone belive in God and another person don�t.

With exaggeration I mean that the bible has a big tendency to sound dramatic and of course that goes for religion too.
The part when Jesus walks on Water, did he really? And what about Maria getting pregnant without any man around, maybe she had a man and infact was cheating on him? So her explanation was, God gave me this child.
Maybe I am out on a thin line here but I just wanna show what I meant with exaggeration and things that probably not are true.

Interesting view there Drunken Monkey.

One thing thou, why are so many incarsanated and those who sits on the deathrow getting religious?

Matthew

[Drew]

I always find it interesting that when a religious person is explaining something to me pertaining to religion, what seems so obvious to them seems totally unfounded to me.

My feeling is that if God wanted us to know something, we would know it. Why putz about with reading material?

About protecting his people in war, why in the world would he do that? Shouldn't a Christian's main goal in life be to live by the principles of God and die early in order to be with him? On that note, what's up with being alive and stuck here on Earth? It's somewhat like an ant farm for him, I suppose.

Awetopsy, regarding my comments about Man in God's image, you missed my point totally (and perhaps on purpose? ). I need a body because I'm not an omnipotent controller of the galaxy. God doesn't need a body because, well, he *is* the omnipotent controller of the galaxy. Therefore, Man in God's image seems ludicrus to me.

But it all boils down to faith. That's what the faithful have that make them believe. And that's just not good enough for me.

[Drew]

Somebody reply to this so I can keep ranting.

[Awetopsy]

[Drew]

Holy crap that link is a lot of reading. I skimmed it, but it doesn't address my points. Here are some quotes just for funsies.

"Christ lives through us when we follow the desires of the spirit God has given us rather than the desires of the flesh."
We were made in God's image, or at the very least God made us. So would not every desire we have be the desires God gave us?

"Though God is invisible, he is still speaking to us, to his creation and to the world of men."
Apparently to some more than others. As in, he's speaking to you quite a bit and to me not at all.

"The world cannot understand spirit or the course of those who are born of the Spirit of God."
This section seems to suggest that some people cannot understand God because God isn't with them. That seems somewhat unfair, don't you think?

Back to the original discussion, God has no use for a physical body, ie hands, feet, eyes, etc. I am totally baffled as to how anyone could think that he would have a body. If he indeed did use organs such as eyes, would that not indicate that he needed senses to see, and, being all knowing, would that not indicate that the sensory organs he has would far, far surpass our own?

I do not buy that God just happened to have a shape that he has no use for which just happened to be really well suited for life on Earth.

And again, we wouldn't be having this discussion if we were just born with the truth. Why make things so dang complicated?

[Drunken Monkey]

Thx for the long reply Awetopsy. I don't know if you want to continue this or not... but i am willing. I'll always listen to anyone who claims to make sense out of christianity.

[Gort]

Ah...it all sounds like the Archetype of the Collective Unconscious.

Interesting points all around.
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[Matthew]

Hello

Yea, thanks for all the thoughts and information Awetopsy, Drunken, Drew, Gort.

I guess I can�t back up my stuff with any proofs and there are no proofs yet. But I guess that is what Science are trying to do right now, trying to explain why we are here and where we came from.
I can see that you guys know your stuff but still there must be some things that you think are too fiction or made up from the bible, or is everything true?
I was wondering Awetopsy, If Science explain some things about how the Man was created or how the earth was created would the Church or christianity consider some of that true? Have there been any changes in the bible late 19th Century os does all info goes back too the year 0?
I haven�t read through all the bible so I don�t know.

One thing that is too much fiction is that Adam and Eve was created from a dragons blood.

Still no flaming, let�s keep it that way.
Matthew

[Sumaleth]

Interesting thread. I'm always interested about this discussion and it's good to see it going without incident here.

It's clear that there's something in the human makeup that encourages us to believe in things that make us "feel safe", or make us "feel like our life is part of something bigger".

There are an untold number of religions/cults in the world, all telling variations of the same story and yet the members all believe so strongly that theirs is the "true" belief system that they're willing to die for it.

Consider 'Branch Dividian' as an example. David Koresh believed that he was the resurrection of Jesus and that he was in regular communication with God. And his followers believed this too, just as strongly as anyone here might have their own beliefs. His followers lived their life under the knowledge they were right and everyone else was wrong. They wrote books, and expanded their religion/cult by telling other people about it.

In other words, it was just like any other religion/cult.

To us, however, it seemed like they were all a little misguided. And the interesting question is this: what if Koresh has been born 2000 years ago?

There's a quote I like by Stephen Roberts:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

That's true of so many aspects of this discussion.

"God created us in his image."

That phrase has a lot more in common with the way astrologists explain what is going to happen each month to every single person born in the month of April, than a be-all-end-all heres-how-it-is statement from an alrighty entity. It's open to whatever interpretation people want to give it, and of course there are different interpretations for all the different religions.

This sort of "interpretation" is completely arbitrary and worthless, and so much of religion is in this vein.

Of course, astrology is another example of mankinds seeming -need- to believe. The idea that your life is predetermined by the position of the stars when you are born is of course ridiculous, and yet there's large number of people in the world who believe this is how their life works. The real kicker is, as scientist Richard Dawson points out, the stars in the sky have moved position since astrology was devized, meaning that people born as "Tauras" today should actually be considered a "Cancer". So if astrology actually does mean something today, then it must be based on the -time of the year- you were born, not the position of the stars. And given the 100% arbitrary design of our calender, this is even more silly than the original contention.

[Gort]

[SolarC]

Someone might think of me as a paradoxal person I suppose, because my believing depends mostly on the viewpoint I want to look at things.
If decide to aproach this question from a rational scientific viewpoint then the only conclusion I can come up with is that I am an agnostic. However in spiritual viewpoint I do believe atleast in a fair possibility of some kind of afterlife. I feel for myself that looking at these questions from another one of these viewpoints only is very limiting.

How I feel about the scientific viewpoint is that it can not ever answer all the basic questions about life. Even if big bang, evolution theory and the theories of quantum mechanics would've been all proven they couldn't really answer the question about the origin of life. The question is related to a concept of pure nothingness. Not nothingness that only lacks all materia. What I mean by this is that even if we'd know for sure that in big bang energy exploded and took a material form we would still ask where did this energy come from or why it exists. This concept of pure nothingness means besides the lack of materia also lack of energy or actually anything that is related to how our universe works. This is why I think life will always be both a miracle and a mystery.

The other thing with science is that scientific world view can be used as dogmaticly as any relagion. It's good to remember that in the world of science nothing is certain unless it is proven. For an example, you have probably heard people explaining about anything with evolution theory, as dogmaticly as some people base things on religious texts. "This is because of in millions of years of time animals have had a need for blaa blaa blaa..." You know what I'm talking about, you have probably heard it million times. People easily forget that evolution theory hasn't been proved and much less all the things explained basing arguments on it. So scientific world view can also become a question of faith and nothing more.

On the other hand when approaching these questions only from the religious point of view it is impossible to analyze and question things. I have trouble believing that any religion who claims to be 100% right of everything when interpreted literally would really be. Also I don't understand how people judge which religion would be worth to trust literally if it collides with views of other major religions.

Despite of these things being hard and all, I think that western world could use some more spirituality, but not with an expense of rational thinking.

Thanks for everybody with sharing their beliefs and participating. This is a great discussion and opportunity to learn why people believe what they believe!

[Sumaleth]