[Matthew]

This Thread is getting more and more interesting, cool thoughts there Sumaleth.

I saw some program yesterday on discovery where they had mapped all of the DNA and genes from a fly and apparently we had much in common with the fly. I guess everything on earth is created on one building stone, one cell and that is so interesting.
According to sceintists the Universe is expanding as we speak and that there is no ending to it, or maybe according to them the effect could be reversed so somewhere or sometime the Universe starts to implode.
btw, I am having a hard time to believe in the moon landing, so many strange things about those photos, maan, I would give a billion to find out the truth and not to see star-less photos from an interior studio somewhere in the states. with a flag that should point straight up and not straight to the side...huuu Cough,.....Cough....Hoax....Cough.

Anyway, enough of hoax conspiracy�s.
Something that is interesting with this topic is that the question was if there is an afterlife and all of sudden everyone was talking about religion and the bible. Could be the resurrection of Jesus and that started the commotion, I mean who many in the states believed in UFO�s before the Movie "Close Encounter�s of the third grade" (hmm I Don�t know the actual title in English).

I have had a weird theory for very long, it is if Humans or something else lived on the big planet before Big Bang, What if there were a big planet and that there was a civilisation even then.
The cool thing with evolution is that we have something in common with everything, the rock, the tree, the birds, the fly�s, remember that when exit your door tomorrow.

Matthew

[Sumaleth]

There's no stars in the footage because if you set the camera exposure long enough to get the stars the rest of the image would be pure white.

The flag sits straight out because they had a bar in the top of the flag so that it would sit up.

"Close Encounter�s of the third grade" is the kiss I had with Karen Spalding behind the primary school canteen.

(it's 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' in english)

The universe is expanding, and current calculations suggest that there's not enough matter in the universe to slow the expansion down. So unless they find some more types of matter hidden somewhere (possible), the universe will continue to expand, eventually losing all it's heat, and we'll end up with a very dead universe.

That's quite a way off yet though.

The expansion isn't happening like you might think. There's not an "edge" to the universe moving outwards. The universe has no edge, it's kinda like the surface of a balloon except in 3 dimensions.

It's hard to imagine because there's nothing we experience in our everyday lives that matches it.

And it's actually the "space" itself that is expanding. The space between earth and the sun is expanding. The space between our solar system and the next solar system is getting larger. The space between the atoms of your thumbnail is expanding. It's a very fun kind of expansion.

[Matthew]

aha Karen Spalding. hehe, so is that a term for kissing and stuff?
btw, thank you for the correction, my English sucks when it comes to translate Movie titles...hehe

N�rkontakt av tredje graden - is the swedish translation of the movie title.

I think I read somewhere that stones and stuff are actually in movement too as all the atoms are in the human body and other materials, should not be confused with genes I guess, but if there are movement, should maybe something be alive in there...or maybe not...hmm.
I see we share the same interest of Universal science, cool
I think that the Dark material in space is the expansion factor so I guess as you said there�s no ending to it.

Matthew

[glody]

i know what happens, but i cant talk about it as i have signed an NDA.

[SolarC]

[Sumaleth]

[Awetopsy]

Ive not stopped replying to this thread but delayed a bit because I wanted to think about my answer before replying too hastily. I hope those of you who have responded to me carefully read this instead of just skimming because I cover alot of ground here.

[Matthew]

And I was so sure I have read that in the Bible, I mean about the Dragon part. I am reading in the swedish Bible here right now but I can�t find it, maybe was another version or something, I will have to check that thing out...hehe, maybe it was a children version of the Bible...hehe.

Matthew

[Drew]

I say we should be born with knowlege of God, you say that we were, "we" meaning my ancestors Adam and Eve.

Dude, I have no fricking clue about anything that they thought or did, or if they even existed, yet I'm told be held accountable for their actions? And what I'm given to figure this out is a really old crazy ass book that not everyone gets to see while they live and that I may or may not read because I'm busy and stuff? And if I don't happen to get the book, study it for years, and figure out that God is real, then I'm sent to burn in a place of unimaginable pain for an amount of time that is so long that it can't even be defined?

Not only does that not seem like good plan devised by a being of infinite wisdom, it seems ludicrous. Why would God allow this to happen?

[Sumaleth]

[Awetopsy]

[Sumaleth]

[klaivu]

I have to second Suma.
And I have to say I like the not-so-in-flames tone of this discussion.

Some thoughts about christianity :

Like Suma explained, there might be a " root system ", or multiple of them, or we could all be just plugged to the matrix for all we know, but that doesn't make any specific view in contradiction of empiric knowledge any more valid than the other. Still many use this possibility as a way to back up their views. The possibility of a god outside the logic of this system doesn't make christianity valid.

Instead of going to the details and inner logic of christianity, what is there to prove it's validity ? Why would the bible be true ?

( It would be cool to be a god. More to manage than in MOO3. )

[Awetopsy]

[Drew]

[Drunken Monkey]

To Awetopsy:

Hmm, interesting, I can see where your argument makes sense. But out of around 300 (or close) predictions in the pre New Testament bible, do any of them actually nail any details? I found the �Riding in on a Donkey� and �Born of Virgin Mother� � I can�t find anything but very vague and general descriptions besides those. In the �Born of Virgin� they didn�t predict the name properly

[BlueFlamez]

i would wish to sit with life after death, and the energy concept. here just to share something interesting from my view. Our energy life, i belief, exist in an invisible form to us, just as we are blind to UV(e.g bees can see UV though but bees can't see color red) but able to see all colours. Lending weight to this is the momentum concept, which is something we can't see also. If a moving ball (with momemtum) collides with another stationary ball, the momentum gets passed on, moving the stationary ball. Life energy is akin to momentum and our physical self is akin to the ball. So our current form as a being is only one part of a possible chain of forms we can take in other dimensions. Momemtum is the vehicle of the lifeforce to transit between the dimensions e.g. life after death in another life...the momentum version of lifeforce might be binded by what is the schrodinger law ...
_________________
Humility is the prerogative of humanity

[SolarC]

[SolarC]

[Atrophy]

I find it hard to dicern the validity of a website, when I click on 'afterlife photos' and it's a pornsite.... may just be me.
_________________
'why', is all I hear in my mind,
as I try to stop crying inside, but die trying...

MySite

[Sumaleth]

SolarC: Actually, what you say there pretty much matches my stance too.

--

So lets see - there seem to be 3 models of the way the universe works:

1/ The universe was created by natural means.
2/ The universe was created by a god in the religious sense.
3/ The universe was created by a god who doesn't fit the religious definition.

And due to the nature (not a pun) of the question, there is NO way for mankind to know the correct answer.

Science can never be 100% certain. Science doesn't work that way. Science could end up finding rational, systematic explanations for everything that we experience, but it could still be said that it still doesn't rule out the possibility of god.

The god option, on the other hand, will always remain open to the possibility of being proven - although the -only- way for this to happen would be for god to say hello to everyone. Which is something she doesn't seem keen to do.

Now while there are people who are "fairly-to-very certain" that the universe has natural origins, there are people who "KNOW" that god exists. There are many people who say that god has made her presence clear to them. You don't get that in science, so that's an interesting difference.

Of course, the people who don't get a tap on the shoulder from the big G are left to wonder whether all these other people are collectively crazy, or whether there is some organic explanation.

Which returns me to my first points: even if science does manage to explain it, it'll never be a 100% explanation, and the people who have had such experiences will still KNOW that god exists.

--

I've been on the internet for about 10 years, and the ol' "god question" comes up about.. ooh.. about 5 times a year. So that's about 50 times I've been involved in or witnessed such discussion---

---and I have -never- seen anyone change their opinion as a result of the arguments made. Never.

My point being - this is not a debate that can go anywhere.

It's either going to take huge advances in science and thousands of years before the evolutionary instinct we call "god" gets diluted out of our system.

OR, it's going to take a "hey howdy hey" from the big G before religion becomes a unifying belief.

I don't expect either to happen in my lifetime. But who knows?

--

And just to prove that I can type as much drivel as anyone, here's a little bit of logical thinking that interests me:

We know that the universe is at -least- partially systematic (from our point of view).

Take the human body for example - it's not an arbitrary avatarial form, it's a complex living system with thousands of shortcomings and millions of ways to break down. And the closer we look, the more we realize that we -can- understand how it works. And with this understanding we come to find aspects of its design that are of no use to us and that are less than perfectly designed.

Likewise, the planet has been clearly created and molded by an ongoing system. And matter itself is a cute little system of atoms, sub-atomic particles, and virbrating strings (or whatever they turn out to be).

There are -many- things in our universe that we can readily state are created/managed by systems.

So, the question is: if god is real, then did god create these systems, or are they merely an illusion?

If god did create them, then we have to assume that she knowingly designed flaws into the human body. And we also have to assume that she would know that we would eventually find all these systems and understand how they work.

If they're illusory, then we have to assume that god is toying with us.

I can't think of any good reason why I should believe the systems are illusory. Our growing understanding of these systems has too readily lead to predictions that were later be shown to be true, and to ways that we can interfere or interact with these systems to make our lives better.

Which means that for me to believe that god exists, I have to accept that:

. She knowingly designed flawed systems.
. That she knows we will find these systems.
. That these systems will appear to be of natural origin.
. And that these systems will contradict religious beliefs.

But that is not the god of religion.
_________________
Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[spooge demon]

sumaleth, assuming they are flaws presupposes that you know the true function of a system, if it was in fact designed. I am not the tree, I am but a leaf, and meant to die. So that funny looking mole on my butt is all part of God's Plan:)

My bubblegum card philosophy for the day: complexity is relative. The universe seems very large and complex to anyone who has taken a look. Many use this perception to conclude one thing or another. Is it that complex or are we just very tiny and dumb? We have no other frame of reference to know.

back to wwwork

[Sumaleth]

[Awetopsy]

Ive really enjoyed this conversation so far. Although it seems as tho some people are getting defensive.. and so Im not going to go on about greek and hebrew anymore.

I always find it very interesting to hear other peoples thought and beliefs and love to share mine if anyone wants to listen.

Ive been carefully considering my responses and I freely admit, Im certainly no scholar on the bible or religious beliefs, but I always find religious beliefs fascinating.

Instead of continuing about whether the bible is accurate, or whether Krishna is a fake, or whatever, Im going to share with you some experience Ive had just this weekend.

I am the youth leader at my church. I have been for the last four years. This weekend we held a youth and young adult convention, got a local band and a couple guest speakers from nearby cities. One of the guest speakers brought a number of his youth group along and I had a chance to speak with some of them. Id like to share a one of their stories.

I spoke to an 18 year old named Johnny, a skater, wears his hat crooked and sideways on his head, wears baggy jeans and says "dude" alot. About a year ago his dad developed a heart problem and Johnny got scared, so in desperation, he said "God, you cant let my dad die. Its not his time and I still need him." His dad got better. No more problems with his heart.

A week ago, Johnny was praying with a friend and all of a sudden saw an image, in his mind, of a man with a beard with a green flannel jacket and blue jeans.. looking sorta like a bum, someone he had never even seen before. A couple of days went by and again, on a sunday morning, when he was praying saw the same image of that same guy. His sister called him to ask him to pick her up for church and so he had to leave a bit earlier, so after he had picked up his sister, they started towards church and were driving down past a gas station and he happened to look over his shoulder and saw the man with the beard, with a green flannel jacket and blue jeans riding a bike, so he quickly turned a street and pulled into a gas station and said "God, If he comes down this street, Ill go talk to him." Well, the man in the green flannel jacket turned down that street, so Johnny flagged him down and said "Sir, I really feel like God is telling me that you need to go to church". The guy just looked at him kinda funny, and then asked him for a quarter to make a phone call. So Johnny gave him a quarter and a card for his church and then left the man and continued to church. During the church service, he remembered that he hadnt told the man when church started, so he said, "God, I know I forgot to tell the man when church started, so let me see him again today or tomorrow and Ill tell him what time church starts." Later that day, Johnny and a buddy were driving somewhere and again he saw the man in the green flannel jacket, so he pulled over and went up to the man and said, "Sir, I forgot to tell you when church started. The man said,"Yes you did." Johnny then told him what time church started (for a midweek evening service) and the guy looked at him and said "Ill check my schedule" and turned away. Johnny reached out his hand and put it on the mans shoulder and said "Sir, I really do feel like God is saying to you that you should go to church" The man just stopped and said, "Man you're giving me goose bumps". He then said to Johnny, "I just recently arrived in town here from Vancouver, My mom passed away and before she died, she told me she was praying for me to get into a good church. I didnt want to think about it." This was last week, so we'll have to see if the guy shows up in church. Sometimes, God might call, but people dont answer.

Here's something that happened at the youth and young adult conference my church held, one of the guest speakers at the end of his message, asked people who wanted something from God to come up to the front and he would pray for them, one of the guys that went to the front was a good friend of mine named David Wylie. The guest speaker looked at him and said, "God says you are a watcher on the wall, you see things before anyone else and warning other people about them." (I was standing two feet from this since I was the MC for the night) The speaker went on to tell him that God was going to open up his eyes to be able to see more and to get more information.
David Wylie is a journalist for one of the biggest news publications in Vancouver B.C. Canada. His job is to get news before other people He lives in my home town of Kelowna and reports for the publication which is out of Vancouver(4 hours drive away). The guest speaker never met David before, and I know this because I know both the speaker and David.

These are the real reasons I believe what I do. I see this kind of thing all the time. I could go on typing up all the different things Ive seen "the big G" do.

whether you believe me or not, these things do happen, every day.

[couple of edits for clarity]

[Drunken Monkey]

:]

Maybe what you think god is � he/she/it isn�t. Maybe what you think are imperfections is really something that serves its purpose perfectly.

As I observed it so far there is an obvious interaction of positive and negative, light and dark, love and fear, gravity and repulsion manifesting everywhere. That interaction of opposites seems to have one thing in common � it cycles the energy. The same primal energy released at the moment of BIG BANG. Whatever form it may take at the moment � purely physical or a thinner emotional, spiritual if you will. I cannot find any other purpose for the existence of the universe other than that constant cycling and interaction on all imaginable levels. Yes it�s as if God is experiencing everything that is possible to experience � all good, bad and all that�s in the middle - if you want to think of it that way.

For example for the world to exist there have to be two opposite forces present � gravity and repulsion. Pick one and take its side. Repulsion thinks its 100% abundance is the perfection, gravity thinks in inverse. What do you have when one of them is absent? Nothing. So there is a balance of the two which enables the world to exist.

I�d like to know what great plans some of you who think the world �could be better� have in mind.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Drunken Monkey]

I think most of us have these stories... i too have no explanation for them... these things happening keep me thinking that there is a force out there listening, helping. Ever since i decided that i am no longer a christian nothing changed.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Sumaleth]

These sorts of stories do seem to have a very strong impact on people who already believe god exists.

But they have no impact on people who aren't already tuned to that sort of thinking.

It's related to what I said earlier about the rational/irrational way of looking at the universe.

--

Here's a little story to show what I mean (this is made up):

Two (unconnected) people buy lottery tickets.

One guy is currently writing a book about evolution. He's been trying to finish it for 2 years. But he doesnt have enough money saved to work on it full time, so he has to keep taking freelance jobs which keep him away from the one project he truely loves. This guy buys a lottery ticket, week after week, on the odd chance he might get lucky.

The other guy is the Pastor of a local church. His church is located in the poorest suburb of the city, and even though the church has only just enough funds to stay open another week or two, he can't bring himself to ask for more money from his church members because he knows they have already contributed more than they can afford. He prays nightly for god to help his church. He has never bought a lottery ticket before, but 3 days before the church closes down he decides to buy a ticket so that god has a "way" of giving him help.

The writer wins $2million! He can't believe his luck.

The pastor wins $2million! He won't ever stop thanking god.

Some time later these two guys happen to meet, and in casual conversation they tell each other their stories.

The writer thinks that the pastor's win was by chance, even if the pastor won't admit it.

The pastor thinks that the writer's win was from god, even if the writer won't admit it.

--

Stories are nice, but they will only ever reinforce the way the person already thinks (and make them wonder why the other person is seeing something in the story that clearly isnt there).
_________________
Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Matthew]

It all comes down to Coincidence cause I don�t believe in Faith. Should be the only thing that works for 100% and that is coincidence, all these random things that happens all the time. Either you have luck and neither you don�t, either you rich neither you�re not, either you are clever neither you are not.
The truth is out there and I want to believe in Aliens and all sort of mysterious things, but it�s very hard and so far nothing has gone my way so I will still live in doubt of a higher thing and that -that higher thing will help us on the way.

What about Nietsche�s point of view, God is dead?

Matthew

[Drew]

Awetopsy, your story makes me feel like I'm watching that show on Sci-Fi with the guy who talks to dead people. Just because you or I can't explain something doesn't make it the work of God. Those of us who look for patterns in life are bound to find them. Why do you think so many people have conspiracy theories?

Spooge is right on, though. We are small and know nothing. However, that is no reason to give up reason. All we can do is do the best we can at understanding the world around us.

[Dr. Bang]