[klaivu]

Want to know what happens after death ? Go look at some dead things.

[radical travis]

Always an interesting topic.

Most thoughts on spirituality are of a scientific view here at sijun, as I recall, and as you see in this thread. I've noticed that as I've hung around here for however long it's been probably more then a year now. That's cool, I don't mind at all, but...

when I'm a person who operates on a totally different 'system' so to speak, it's hard for me to try and fill in and make somebody who doesn't naturally feel that way these things. what do you want me to do?

I can tell you this - I wasn't involved in any religion at all growing up. No one tryed to define my views in anything, I was left to my own to explore. Now being of the introspective, imaginative bent naturally, I've always been drawn to explore my personal spirituality. Why the hell wouldn't I be, it's the source of all the creative, the good, the mojo that's brimming in me right? And I can tell you that if you want evidence you can have it.

It's really the modern man situation of being so utterly petrified of facing himself that prevents anyone from having 'evidence'. {And guessum what? That's the age old situation too.}I've experienced the spiritual, let me tell you.

But I don't need to tell you. I don't know I guess that's the universe's big point. it ownz j00. (my words, not its its nature man, its itself. its not some person, its not nothing, its energy and consciousness and other things... simple things, that dense f'ing human beings would rather bury in all manner of fantasy and bull poopy. and another thing, my experiences have nothing to do with drug altered states either. that only brings me back to my point, the answers are right in front of you. there are no pretensions, obfuscations, or constructs... those are what the people add cause of the big 'ol issue... you see cause the nature of the spirit is really so simple, people refuse to accept it cause then they would have to live it. in other words... poof... there goes the drama. this is what any purely spiritual person can tell you, the true heros of any religion who usually even disown the whole religion and tell you these things...

but I have no worries about trying to 'make' you understand anything I believe. My most critical of minds has found facts for itself and my soul connects freely with higher energies (from time to time, I'm not superman . In other words, from the point I've climbed to look, much is evident, and of course experience is even more then evident. So it's hard to rile me up about this, I'm only posting to give a differnt view and perhaps inspire someone, anyone, to explore, explore, explore within. Of course that is a real fugging bitch to take that on and start living like that, but the rewards in true insight are at least equal

sorry that for the most part this post is completely insubstantial and not going to give you anything to grab on to. like I said at the beginning, I don't know how/if you can communicate into two different polarties.

i'll part with something that's true of science as well as spirit - there is always something greater.


p.s. - when i say the answers are right in front of you if you immediately ask 'where?' - I have to ask - how much time do you honestly spend alone, undisturbed by any mental or physical burdens, dedicated to some kind of activity that you feel would explore the issue? I mean personally I've had plenty of time to wander alone and think in my life and that opens up the underlying spirit like you wouldn't believe, to experiences much beyond thought. but the simple reality is if you are attached to society, if you're not being willing to dawdle, escape and getaway from external things that hold your being and attention - which is most human beings situation most of the time, mine included - then you won't experience anything spiritual (well you may, but you won't be the one pursuing and finding IT) and times it'll come up to you are incredibly rare, but if you go to it you have a very high rate, in fact 100% chance of finding it providing you can discard your fear your conditioning and be willing to experience

ok sorry, I figure this is useful to no one here, but it doesn't hurt to share views.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: radical travis ]

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: radical travis ]

[edraket]

Travis said most of what I wanted to say. And better than I could have said it.

What I wanted to add was when these matters are discussed religion automatically becomes christianity. Why do people always forget that there are far more spiritual beliefs/religion? Those beliefs could offer a lot to people that don't feel at home with christianity. Pardon me for saying so.
Some eastern beliefs comply or can adapt a lot more to our scientific world view and can offer usefull practical ways of dealing with our fast paced and stressy western world.

You say that people know nothing when they are born. Well just so you know there are psychotherapists all over the place that encounter memories in people that could not have been from this life. Some of these are well respected professors.

You also mention the fact that there is no justice in the world and so much pain. Well have you ever tried to imagine a world where those things would not exist and everyone would be happy all day long? We would be stagnant. You need polarity for progress.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: edraket ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

First of all, nobody has any evidence one way or another so how can anybody think they 'know' one way or another?

Second: this life's too full of pain, so there can't be a God - gah how many times have I heard that argument...

What kind of universe do you think we should have? We all float about with no effort, getting all our dreams fullfilled with no effort, no one ever got sick or died or even the slightest bit hungry or itchy or cold or warm or restless or... etcetcetc Would that be more consistant with a religious world view? That sounds like pure hell to me, or at least a total waste of a whole universe. The one we've got is at least occasionally entertaining, and full of opportunities to grow.

edit: heh, sorry just repeated what edraket said there...

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]

[Coaster]

Awetopsy, if you can critisize us, we can with religious nuts.

I had someone fairly close to me die in late january, and I thought a lot about it and it all boiled down to:

whats the facination? As you decompose so doesn't your brain.. and it has your thoughts in it doesn't it?

Heres some more shit for your list:

shite 4

[Rat]

Death: it happens. Get over it. It doesn't matter what comes after it because it has absolutely no impact on our lives...at least it shouldnt, anyhow.

As for me, I don't particularly care whether I live or die...makes no difference to me. Hell, if I didn't have something to live for...*trails off into unitelligible muttering*

Yeah...you don't want to know what's been going on in my twisted mind lately.

[vigilo]

quote:

---

Second: this life's too full of pain, so there can't be a God - gah how many times have I heard that argument...

---

Indeed. Difficulties are the same old manifestation of the opposite and interacting forces. It exists everywhere in human, animal or any celestial realms.
The positive and the negative, without them universe would not exist.

If there would be no resistance such as i.e. injustice or ignorance in human world or time and space in cosmic world everything would be perfectly accomplished and manifested. In other words neither humanity nor universe would ever exist in the first place it would instantly become what it was previous to big bang. Creation and existence are impossible without both positive and negative.


Travis nailed it. (I�m actually floored by what he said, because it�s so true.) All these religious discussions whatever they might be � religion vs. religion vs. science is just pointless waste of time � exchange of one stupidity for another. All the answers are in your head already, you are just too busy arguing, pretending and expecting.
A sign of a spiritually mature man is his ability to be alone with his thoughts. No-one I know is able to do this, everyone prefers beer, tv, shopping, chatter and other distractions. Distractions from their own chaotic dark minds. Go and dwell about things that make you uncomfortable, alone without discussing it with anyone. This is how you kill your pretenses and start knowing things.

Someone above said that it�s good to have some kind of belief because it makes you comfortable. This is the laziest thing I ever heard. The fact that you are uncomfortable is already telling you that something is not right! At least admit to yourself that you DON�T REALLY KNOW and maybe then start working on knowing.

And to add�
What we think we wore meant to do is probably not what we really do. Every human just like every animal is born with the tools to survive - a superior brain in our case. This brain is the perfect computer that is capable of everything imaginable including confusing itself into artificial needs and creating its own ridiculous realities. If it�s used naturally it is capable of a lot more than with �help� of any religion, science, religious sijun debate or any other doctrine.

Maybe this makes sense to someone other than myself.

[Coaster]

We're born to duplicate our DNA. Thats all.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Coaster ]

[vigilo]

Yeah. And the head is given you so you can eat with it right?

[Pixel Soldier]

WOW.

It seems like the majority of posts are from atheists. Is it reasonable to assume that the majority of people here at Sijun don't believe in religion? Going even further, would it be reasonable to assume most artists don't put faith in religion? This is interesting to me.

I for one don't believe in religion, but I certainly don't judge anyone for being religious. I genuinely find the subject very compelling, kinda like a course I'd take in school. It's always hard to have a mature conversation on the matter without getting into a VERY heated argument, from my experiences.

It seems though, that everyone here is being REALLY calm about this, which I find incredible considering the reputation Sijun has developed. I commend everyone for offering their thoughts to this thread with such restraint.

Another common question that I'm curious about is, are you afraid of death? I am, but I have lots of personal reasons for that. You guys?

[Awetopsy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coaster:
Awetopsy, if you can critisize us, we can with religious nuts.

---

Im not sure if you are calling me a religious nut here..... but Ill assume you arent.

How am I critisizing anybody? Ive only pointed out what Ive seen is a trend and asked you all to please be careful of the words you use.. because they are being mis-used. thats hardly critisism.

going back to the old "what is religion for, anyways" thread Ill reiterate what I said there. You have every right to believe whatever you want. I dont really care. but if you attack the system I hold dear to without really knowing what you are talking about, you better believe Im gonna risk looking like a "religious nut" to defend it.

Ive got nothing against anybody here, whether they are athiest, agnostic, buddhist, muslim, satanist, pagan, or otherwise. You all have your freedom to believe what you want... please let me believe what I want.

[edit] oh... and no worries. I hope there is no offence in anyhting I say, Im not offended and I certainly dont mean to offend.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Rat]

Afraid of death? Naw. If I was, I'd be worse off than I already am. Been close enough as it is...won't elaborate.

[vigilo]

quote:

---

but if you attack the system I hold dear to without really knowing what you are talking about, you better believe Im gonna risk looking like a "religious nut" to defend it.

---

Why would you want to risk anything to prove to someone who doesn't know what he is talking about that he is wrong?
And is the system you 'hold dear' so weak its going to shatter if you don't defend it?

quote

Quote:

please let me believe what I want.

Can anyone force you to do otherwise by their remarks here?

This is like "Please don't make any coherent/incoherent arguments that will invalidate/offend my well rooted dogmas. I don't do it to you, why are you doing it to me?"

That�s why so many people attack Christians, because (modern) Christianity is just one big swollen insecurity just asking to be poked at.


Death: I am kind of curious when the time comes to finally find out whats after

[Returner]

steven and edraket:
I belive there is something out there.
But there is no indication that that "thing" gave ous anything else but the universe and therefore life. And if there has been any Jesus guy, why the hell didn't he stick around and make earth a better place with his godly powers??
And I like the opportunities my life has given me. Im just saying that there is in my opinion no justice and thereby no "good force or god that effects our daily life".
Unless "god" have some higher goal and acts according to it and that is the reason that people get AIDS, wars,fatal accidents etc.
And you asked "ous atheist" whether we would like a world where no one died, got sick etc.(sounds like a scene from the matrix btw)And YES I and many people would like such a world. Ask that question to someone who is about to die in AIDS or is having diarrea. Of course thats a world scenario that we are all striving for to reach.
Are you against a world were everybody lives to be a thousand years old and where there is no wars. Just for the reason that you need polarity to archieve progress???

Vigilo:
You mean that everybody should seek out their own answers to the big questions in life? With "knowing" things you mean learning things yourself in a kind of Aristoteles way yes?
But if you already belive that your frog is your reincarnated brother, are you going to be any wiser if you go and dwell about it? Probably you will only think about things that supports your theori.
But if you go and dwell about it for fiften minutes and then go and meet a person who have dwelled about the exact opposite of what you have dwelled about
And you then discuss it with eachother, isn't that better?
Or am I missing the point here? Are you saying that you just should find your own answers to theese things?
explain...

[Mag82]

Well, I hadn't had the time to read all of this, but what I read just sparked something that just calmed down in myself a while ago...

This is what I think is the truth. Well... symbolic for the scientific method that Darwin used to explain things.

People seem to want to believe in something higher to have some sort of security... "oooh I'm gonna be in hell if I don't do this and that" or "this bad guy is gonna be in hell and I hate him" (to stand bad treatment for example). Let's face it - if you can't explain something - like seeing through your eyes and having a cnopsciousness - the easiest thing is to make something up. I think it's this easy... sorry if I offended anyone.

Now other people see themselves like this, justifying their murdering and mischief with some religion. Sorry for the blasphemy, but this is a picture that shows my point. Religious fanatics are the worst mankind has seen so far, because they can convince others and make them do virtually anything!

A rational thought for the end: Your brain is what controls your body. You sense things through your body. It (probably) evolved through a natural process as it could just as well not have happened. Just as naturally, our life ends. Nothing after that. Not even a blackout, because your consciousness went away with your brain, so you can't conceive it. Why worry about it? Nobody's gonna suffer. Nobody's even gonna know they're dead or that they once were alive. Bah.

Ah and a scary thought that might drive some people to religions: What if there was not universe? No universe = nobody wondering why there isn't any, because that would require a universe. No time. No space. Nothing. But nobody would care, because nobody'd be there. Oooh, scary thought, huh?

Don't shoot me. This is not to offend anyone anywhere, but my opinion. I let everybody else have their opinion as well. As for the pictures, I found them somewhere else and I don't mean to pick on any religion or any person with them, just using them for argumentation purposes. Thanks for understanding this.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mag82 ]

[Coaster]

Well, I'm not trying to control your thoughts, I just like to share mine and see what other people think.

Now you'd have to be pretty suggestable to beleive what someone writes on the internet..

[Returner]

A good explanation of the phenomen of beliving Vigilo. Made me a little bit wiser. (which isn't very hard)
To really know it has to come from within and it cant be forced.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[social drone]

i saw a guy last week who cut off his eyelids because he believed he was "the choosen one" that he was the "life christ," they brought him into the Er and he kept asking for a mormon bishop to speak with him.
i guess i believe religion has its good and bad points. i would say having to sleep with your eyes open for the rest of your life would be a point under ...the bad...
its my understanding people are willing to believe in something that they know probably isnt true, just to have peace of mind. sort of sounds like a contradiction, but maybe brainwashing yourself is what religion is all about. making yourself have faith.
i would think most peoples lives are shit. and its easy to see how one would like to believe that they go to paradise when they die, its something to look foreward to. like retirement, or a vacation.
i keep wondering if eyelid man tore off his lids as a direct result of his faith or lack of...looking at him reminded me of that movie the prophecy with christopher walken.
christopher walken, now theres a guy who i might expect to tear off his eyelids.
i wonder if he gets laid much..wouldnt that be a scary topic? if i ever sit witness to walken having sex, god for me is allready dead.

[vigilo]

Returner,

I don�t know what Aristotle wrote, I never read him. But �knowing� is a state where you don�t doubt if you really know or not, if you see it for what it is or not. It doesn�t come to you by randomly trying every possible combination/answer/formula/idea and finally finding something you can�t disprove with your current �knowledge� set, but from taking an observers seat and letting it reveal itself, without any beliefs, wishes or expectations to block your view.

If you doubt what you know, it�s not the truth, and if it�s not the truth don�t lie to yourself but admit you don�t really know� then drop your fake knowledge (belief) and see it for what it is. I don�t know how to put it in a clearer way.

If you believe in people reincarnating into frogs you are already blocking something that might be true (and different) to become apparent to you. Its like going to math class with firm expectation that 2x2 is 5 and when someone or something is trying to show you otherwise you disagree with them because its against your �faith� and stop listening.

You don�t find a belief then dwell on it and get your confirmations that you wore right or not, you drop the belief first then look at the picture which is going to be clear by then.

You can meet a person who knows - which is incredibly rare because deluded people can�t tell a difference between someone who pretends to know and someone who really knows. You still have to process everything they say to get anything out of it - even when you think you got it, you probably didn�t. Having a long conversation with another deluded person is just going to get you more confused; no matter how much more authentic their particular delusion seems to be. It�s a waste of time because we are all deluded to a degree.

[klaivu]

This thread gave me a nightmare.

I saw a dream that included a monk that decided that he was the chosen one, so he had me, a forced convert, blind him with a bent wire hanger. After that, the time somehow changed to around 30 ad, and jesus, a charismatic and insane cult leader, wanted to make us, a good five hundred converts, march in pace around him in a salt desert. I remember he was very upset about a child who would stumble and fall every now and then and beat him in the neck with a stick.

Umm. yeah. Just thought this would fit in :/

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: klaivu ]

[edraket]

quote

Quote:

Are you against a world were everybody lives to be a thousand years old and where there is no wars. Just for the reason that you need polarity to archieve progress???

Yes.

Of course it is sad for the people that have aids and the people that die of hunger and all those people that are unhappy.
And believe me I have known plenty of moments where I would count myself amongst that unhappy lot.
And yet..those moments have shaped me into the person I am now. Probably more so than the moments where I was happy. I cannot imagine how superficial my life would be right now if I hadn't known pain and unhappiness.
You yourself serve as a great example for this. You lose someone close to you and it makes you think about things in a way that you never have before.

You say you strive for a perfect world. Well yes..we all do. It is that striving that forms our life. Not the world itself. If the world were already perfect why would you do anything? Why would you eat? Why would you work? Why would you make art?

[Nilwort]

well, scientifically, it's impossible for everything to be in perfect balance right? There's always factors working against people being alive, even in a utopian society...every human being on this planet consumes a certain amount of resources like gas, food, air, crap like that. I remember reading somewhere that people are consuming more resources than the earth is regennerating...of course humanity could invent some magical fusion device and solve all the worlds' energy problems...

But the way things are going now, I'm betting that China is going to invade Taiwan, the US will invade Iraq, and the shit hits the fan in a nuclear/biological splat and we're all going to DIE!

[Returner]

Edraket:

Of course we all strive for a better world.
Guess that all the talk about polarity eventually comes down to your perticular perspective. Your very own situation in life.

Some people never experiences "true" unhappiness in their lives. While some get hit repeatedly by it.
I guess our discussion in the end comes down to the philosophical question: Would you rather live a short life filled with many ups and downs, wich contains the full spectra of what life has to offer?
Or: Live a long life with no major obstacles or problems?
Maybe the downsides makes you more able to appreciate the upsides of life.
But on the other hand you go through some big shitty moments that drag you down in periods.

You could compare it to an EKG chart.
Either pick a line which go up and down a whole lot. Or pick a line that goes steady all the way to the very end.

Just now I feel I would rather live a ignorant life with just minor problems.
I belive there is limits and boundaries which we dont want to cross however wiser we become on the other end of it.
Ignorance is a bliss eh?

[Awetopsy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by vigilo:
Why would you want to risk anything to prove to someone who doesn't know what he is talking about that he is wrong?
And is the system you 'hold dear' so weak its going to shatter if you don't defend it?

---

weak? actually there are alot of weak christians. The system itself isnt weak, but there are weak people who do get offended and say dumb things which give non-christian people ammunition to fire back at christians all around. Its that mis-information that 99% persent of people use to go after christianity. So no 'the system' isnt weak.. but alot of the people in the system are because of their lack of knowledge.

quote:

---

Can anyone force you to do otherwise by their remarks here?

This is like "Please don't make any coherent/incoherent arguments that will invalidate/offend my well rooted dogmas. I don't do it to you, why are you doing it to me?"

---

Im not an easily offended person, I like to think myself a little more mature than that, but I wont hesitate to correct somebody when they obviously are talking from heresay and not from personal experience. Yeah, some of you may have even been in a what-the-people-who-went-there-called-christian church.. but until youve had the experience with God that people who are real christians (not just in name only)have had, then you really dont know from experience.

I actually invite people to try and convice me otherwise than God, and I even admit there is a possibility that I am wrong. In my limited number of years on this earth Ive seen a few things, and heard a few arguments... but nothing has been able to adequately prove to me otherwise.

quote

Quote:

That�s why so many people attack Christians, because (modern) Christianity is just one big swollen insecurity just asking to be poked at.

as per earlier, the system itself isnt the insecure thing... its alot of the people who are insecure and who get all offended.
Im not offended. Im just trying to show that not all christians are insecure, weak, pathetic idiots blindly believing something (not that anybody used that phrase here)

we really do mock what we dont understand.

Coaster: I agree with your last post. I feel much the same way.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[edraket]

quote:

---

Would you rather live a short life filled with many ups and downs, wich contains the full spectra of what life has to offer?
Or: Live a long life with no major obstacles or problems?

---

Which brings us to thinking about time. I know time is an absolute thing. But in your memory it is not. For instance a two day vacation might feel just as long as a two week one when you look back on it a year later. A 14 hour planeride will feel like it was ten minutes afterwards just because nothing actually happened.
So think about this..what else is there to your life then memories? The older you get the more they will form your life.
You can even turn that around. The more memories you have the older (wiser at least) you are.
So is the longer life without obstacles actually a longer life in your memories? Peronally... I don't think it is.

But of course that doesn't mean that at that moment where you are in the low point of a curve you don't long for a life without ripples. I certainly have.
It's all a big paradox. Yes..but certainly good to think about.

[Loki]

very cool edraket!

[Returner]

quote:

---

But of course that doesn't mean that at that moment where you are in the low point of a curve you don't long for a life without ripples. I certainly have.

---

It's all about perspective. In six months I'll probably look at it the way you do know. Time has to change me first.
But a comfort to me is that the person who died lived a very "full" life indead.

[V Shane]

quote:

---

You can even turn that around. The more memories you have the older (wiser at least) you are.
So is the longer life without obstacles actually a longer life in your memories? Peronally... I don't think it is.
But of course that doesn't mean that at that moment where you are in the low point of a curve you don't long for a life without ripples. I certainly have.
It's all a big paradox. Yes..but certainly good to think about.

---

Thats actually a good Quantum Physics and Meditation point. Example, most people who are in some case stressed in a moment,traumitized,drugged, angry, extremely happy...even orgasm wise....all leads to one thing...being in the moment, your focus is here and now. When thats occurs, "Time stands still" your subjective experiance expands when you are not involved conciously with external time, when you are not distracted by past, or future. When your focus and attention are brought into the moment time slows down..not literally but your awareness expands. Similiar to an Audiofile recording, the science behind those were that they were recorded 5 - 10 times slower than your typical LP. This allowed more sound, frequency range to be taken in, so it is the same with our concious minds. A fine example is leading up to that intimate moment of making love to a new (or same if you refresh) partner, you have manually slowed down your subjective time (either by lust or love) and drink in every detail and every feeling, you essentially have dropped down into Low Theta brain wave frequency, the memory absorbtion state. Hence also those who do this often (slowing down thier frequency rate through a discipline of focused attention) will appear wiser..why? Not because being spiritual and medidating makes you wise....BUT increases the number of your experinaces and depth of your memories, you pay attention more often and thus have recorded more "audiophile quality" memories, a better sound or perspective that you produce.

Well thats just my humble opinion

[edraket]

Yeah that sounds pretty Zen
I have been putting off reading up on quantum physics. I'll see if I can find a good book on it. And then some time to actually read it.

[Joachim]

Ok, this is how it is. I'm gonna clear up all your theories

Time is relevant. If you move in speed of light you will move faster or slower in time than others (don't remember which) But, therefor more than one time excist at the same time, ergo all time excists at the same time. But, the reason you feel that it's moving forward is that you cannot keep memories from the future, but jsut the past that stacks up. So, in a sense you live at all times in your life at the same moment, but it feels like a straight path.
So, when you die, your life actually still excists. But, since there is then no more memories to collect, you will feel that it all starts over again...of course this is not something you will feel, because you cannot hold memories from the future and therefor you feel nothing else than being born for the first time (and so it has been forever and will be forever) ..If time is relevant, I actually believe this is the case
Think of it, universe has excisted for billion of years and will excists for whatever billion more years. Why are you alive right now at this very moment, when your life is nothing else than a tiiiiny fraction time bit of the whole excistense...yes, because it has never ended and it will keep on going.

About length of life, this is how I think it is. The more you experience changes or new experiences in life, the longer your life will feel like. That doesn't mean that if you travel a lot, you will feel that life is longer, because it will become a routine and therefor blend into less experiences. If you are miserable/happy or whatever too often, you'll get used to that too. So, you need bigger experiences of all sort every day to be able to pick one day from another. And, that is the reason why time always flies faster when you are getting older, because you've experienced the same things before, days are becomming more similar and it's more difficult to difference the days. Looking at my grandparents for example, they have not done anything else than watching tv for the last 20 years, and they warn me that when I reach their stage 10 years will feel like a week. So, make sure that when you reach a certain age, change evrything about your life, and it will feel longer

sorry I'm rambling, funny subject though. How many have not started a discussion about this when you are drunk ? THe good thing though is that when you are drunk you are actually able to solve all mysteries in life, just too bad the theories don't hold to the day after.