[Jabo]

Tom: When saying "we build your cars", I wanted to highlight that Germanys car-industry has the highest export rate in the world. Of course, you have your cars too and I like it if you drive them, or cars of any other country, but see, You seem to see pictures of 194X when you think of Germany. After being destroyed almost completely, we raised again to a country of enormous strenght, well, we're just as big as Texas, but do you think that the USA would be as proud as they are ATM if they were just as big as Texas? All those American patriots just see the good things of the States, but there's much bad shit going on, and the society is blind.

Concerning the similarities to 1984: I would feel very sick if I lived in my US-home, when at any time, FBI-Agents could storm my house. Maybe the German constitutional state acts a little too bureaucratically, e.G. the police has to call you one day before a house-investigation. But on the other hand, we don't have the same crime-rate like the US!

When the USA left the Kyoto-protocol, once again it was clarified that the US-government just cares about it's own country. Half of Germany is flooded by water ATM, from the alps to the northsea, where are your army-soldiers helping to build dikes? They are in Afghanistan, hunting a dead enemy...

Did you know that Germany's soldiers are the ones who stay in the crisis-regions years after the crisis itself, while the US-guys left just after they "won the war"? Bosien Herzegovina has over 1000 German soldiers holding the position, overall, many thousands of soldiers are stationed in the regions in the near east! "You brought us WW2, so after we eliminated the enemy, why don't you stay and clean up?" That sucks!

comfort: Do you know the name Adam Opel?

Foreigners' politics of Germany: We have the highest imegration rate of europe, some of my friends are foreigners! I'm living near a foreigners-hospice, my town counts 2000 souls, about 100 of them are from turkey, albania, croatia, russia...

Some time ago the chancellor candidate Edmund Stoiber said "the boat is full", meaning that we can't let more foreigners into our country. Well, my feelings are mixed, on the one hand, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt too much if we let more in, but on the other hand, I think all this is still some kind of excuse for WW2...

Of course, the USA are mixed up of different countries, but why the hell do the american people think they are something better than their forefathers?


You could tell me a thousand times how many advantages your country has, but their are some major problems that should be fixed before moving towards new "heroic deeds". Beginning in the first decades of the "new world", where millions of natives where killed, like the jews in Germany. One thing tho: WE are still suffer from the actions that took place in our country, while YOU never seemed to care about the shit "your people" did...

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Jabo ]

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Jabo ]

[edraket]

A lot of europeans seem to really hate america. America is too capitalist..too intolerant..almost fascist in their eyes.
Yet at the same time they seem to feel a need to be like that too because most of europe is showing an enormous shift to more rightwing political parties that show a lot of similarities with the american politics.
The whole european superiority thing has been proven wrong in the past months. People are all the same. They can't think for themselves. Or they don't seem to want to.

I also think it's kind of funny how in nationbashing threads like this there is always someone that starts listing things that their country has made. As if not any big company nowadays is run with money from all over the world and with productionlines all over the world. Philips is originally dutch. So because of that token factory here in Eindhoven I can say that we dutchmen gave you all the cd? Pfff!..
If any country has right to claims that it gave us our wealth, our comforts it would be a country like taiwan. Or maybe the countries we colonised and sucked dry in the past centuries.


Jabo:After being destroyed almost completely, we raised again to a country of enormous strenght

You might also want to mention that the rebuilding was done with funding from the US.

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: edraket ]

[Aber]

quote:

---

One thing tho: WE are still suffer from the actions that took place in our country, while YOU never seemed to care about the shit "your people" did...

---

I know plenty of Americans who feel guilty about the actions they placed upon Native Americans. And also know plenty of Americans who are aware that YOU, Jabo, were not alive during Natzi Germany and can't possibly be responsible for the actions that took place. The same can be said for present Americans, they weren't alive either. I've been to Germany, it has it's idiots, it's racists, it's people with Nazi-like views. The same thing can be said for America. What I am getting at is that Germany, America, or other developed western countries are more similiar than you think.

[Jabo]

Yeah, that's right, but the thing is to present yourself to the public, and I think the US-way isn't the right way.

"And also know plenty of Americans who are aware that YOU, Jabo, were not alive during Natzi Germany and can't possibly be responsible for the actions that took place. The same can be said for present Americans, they weren't alive either."

Yes, but they provide the ignoration by being patriots, I can't really say that I'm a patriot, cuz I don't like my Countries history! On the other hand, I'm aware of many good things made by German folks...

Edraket: Of course, but is it right to destroy whole Dresden and rebuild it? That's what I mean with my future-war-comment: The only time that something warlike happened on your ground was pearl habour. But they didn't destroy thousands of miles of beautiful land- and cityscapes, they destroyed military property and killed soldiers, which is a rule in war, destroying civilian property and killing innocent people isn't the same.


I'll tell you a shortstory: My grandmother (she may rest in piece) was locked in besieged Prague in 1945, she escaped with my mother and my uncle, but my mom's sister was killed because the whole city was bombed by russians. I don't care who killed her, but I hate the conquerors for killing my aunt!

If any of your ancestors died, it's the same feeling for you, but they knew they would leave their country to eliminate the enemy, mine didn't!

[edraket]

ehm..Jabo..as you can see under my post I am from Rotterdam - the Netherlands.
Rotterdam as you might know was destroyed too. And rebuilt.

[Jabo]

Yeah, I was relating to Tom and the others, mixed it up, sorry

[Gort]

Ah Jabo...

quote

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You seem to see pictures of 194X when you think of Germany

No I do not; that is your misinterpretation. Don't paint your picture and put me in it; I have never, ever once referred to 194x. For the record - so you don't misunderstand me - I am talking about now - present day.

quote

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I wanted to highlight that Germanys car-industry has the highest export rate in the world.

In the world...perhaps, but not to America.

quote

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When the USA left the Kyoto-protocol, once again it was clarified that the US-government just cares about it's own country.

The Kyoto Protocol places clean air restrictions on America but excludes other, large countries like China. Clean air restrictions should be placed globally - not locally. It's a global issue - not a localized, American issue only - regardles of the number of vehicles we drive. When all or other countries that actively consume fossil fuels want to imposed clean air restrictions as well, then we will play ball.

quote

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Did you know that Germany's soldiers are the ones who stay in the crisis-regions years after the crisis itself, while the US-guys left just after they "won the war"? Bosien Herzegovina has over 1000 German soldiers holding the position, overall, many thousands of soldiers are stationed in the regions in the near east! "You brought us WW2, so after we eliminated the enemy, why don't you stay and clean up?"

Dude...are you just oblivious? Do you know how many American soldiers are still in the Balkans? I don't think you have any real idea; I suggest you do some research.

quote:

---

Foreigners' politics of Germany: We have the highest imegration rate of europe, some of my friends are foreigners! I'm living near a foreigners-hospice, my town counts 2000 souls, about 100 of them are from turkey, albania, croatia, russia...

---

So what? That has nothing to do at all with my earlier statement. The German government will not give citizenship to any child born of foriegn parents residing in the homeland of Germany, thus they have no full entitlement to the laws and rights of German nationals. For the record, most Americans, myself included, are extremely tolerant and friendly to foriegners; I am actually learning Spanish now so I can effectively communicate with the ever growing Latin community here in Atlanta. When someone from Kenya moves to America and starts a succesful business here, we're very, very happy, because it just further adds credence to the principle that this is a land of opportunity, and anyone and everyone with the motivation to make it can!

quote

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Of course, the USA are mixed up of different countries, but why the hell do the american people think they are something better than their forefathers?

That makes no sense to me at all. No one here thinks they're better than their forefathers. You know what? Don't speak for the "American people". Stop making value judgements on the American populas as whole based on what you read in magazines or see on the TV or hear at some campus rally or discussion group.

quote

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One thing tho: WE are still suffer from the actions that took place in our country, while YOU never seemed to care about the shit "your people" did...

Oh really? You seem to us so well...sitting there in your nice comfy chair in your nice comfy home...over there in Germany. You have no idea about the compassionate and conscientious nature that a good deal of us possess. Our laws allows rights to everyone; the playing field is level for the most part. A lot of us are ashamed of what happened in the past, and we try to move forward with an attitude of compassion and fairness so as to ensure it never happens again. SO do us a favor: stop making value judgements on issues that you have no knowledge or experience with whatsoever.

[Jabo]

As you wish, master Yoda!

[social drone]

Nilwort

quote

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If becoming slightly more like the world descirbed in 1984 is the price to pay for more security from terrorism, I'd say it's a neccesary evil...

That line of action is treason. that is not only waging war on the very ideals the u.s.a. was founded on, it is a sabotoge of the bill of rights and the constitution.

shit to back me up:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

"Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."
-Thomas Jefferson, "Letter to Col. Edward Carrington", January 16, 1787

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
-Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
-George Washington

Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty.
George Washington


Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776:
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

Patrick Henry [3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836]:
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

Patrick Henry at the Virginia Convention, 1788, as quoted by Thomas M. Moneure, Jr., in "Virginia's Great Dissenters", printed in the March, 1999, issue of American Guardian, pp 38-40:
"You are not to inquire how your trade may be increased, nor how you are to become a great and powerful people, but how your liberties can be secured; for liberty ought to be the direct end of your government."

"It is in vain, Sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace! -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the North will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that Gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. -John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, 1775

Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it. -John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776

[H]owever weak our country may be, I hope we shall never sacrifice our liberties. -Alexander Hamilton

No man in his senses can hesitate in choosing to be free, rather than a slave. -
Alexander Hamilton, 1774


i could go on...but im going to go play my ps2 before fatherland security puts my copy of gta3 in permanent exile. fucking pussy...

[edraket]

When someone from Kenya moves to America and starts a succesful business here, we're very, very happy, because it just further adds credence to the principle that this is a land of opportunity, and anyone and everyone with the motivation to make it can

I am not quite sure how that person would come in in the first place though. Immigration into the US is very hard. Harder than most european countries. You need to have a sponsor and / or a skill that no americans have so you don't threaten the job opportunities for americans.
I know all this because I am married to an american and we had to make a conscious choice where we would live.
We chose holland because it offered us both the best chances. Even as an immigrant my wife could follow a better education here with a scholarship from the government, full social healthcare was available to her etc.
You take one small thing and use it as an argument. But when you look at the big picture immigration is much easier in these countries (german and dutch law are pretty similar in this)

[Vesuvius]

The Kyoto Protocol places clean air restrictions on America but excludes other, large countries like China. Clean air restrictions should be placed globally - not locally. It's a global issue - not a localized, American issue only - regardles of the number of vehicles we drive. When all or other countries that actively consume fossil fuels want to imposed clean air restrictions as well, then we will play ball.

you can't impose a treaty on countries that don't want it unless you are a fascist conquerer, but the kyoto treaty had support from over 66 countries, and to say that we should ditch what is by far the best action, aand it only goes into effect after nations that are responsible for 55% percent or more of the worlds greenhouse gas emmissions ratify it- so it's not like it would be punishing only those responsible for a tiny percent while the big offenders get away. Your solution is to wait until you have everyone in the entire world willing to agree to something before you can take any responsibility to fix your part.

Bush has already lessened current emmissions standards for US industrial interests. He's reinstated a permit made by his father regarding making it legal for the army corp of engineers to dump toxic waste in rivers, he wants to drill for oil in wildlife preserves, he dismisses evidence about the environment- written up by an organization that he appointed the president of- as being the work of beaurocrats and not being based in science. But you would have us wait, and wait, until everyone agrees to something- because you live in an all or nothing world?

PS- 77 countries have agreed to it, including all of the EU, South Africa, Japan, Cuba, and many many others.
Russia has said they will ratify it in the fall.
for a list see: http://unfccc.int/resource/kpstats.pdf

Our laws allows rights to everyone
not anymore. thousands of people who were held in relation to terror charges- none of whom were charged with terror links and only 5% of which were charged with ANYTHING- were kept in solitary confinement for 7-9 months with no access to lawyers or to their consulates. 2 American citizens have been deemed 'enemy combatants' and because that term nullifies the need for any evidence, they are being held based on that term alone, with no supporting evidence being presented. very few of our rights involving search and seizure are still in place, the government allows random strip searches on buses and public transport now- and while you are technically allowed to opt-out- the government ruled that the officers performing the searches don't have to let you KNOW you can opt-out.

In my earlier posts I addressed NUMEROUS other ways in which US rights have been majorly eroded or removed, and what I have mentioned in this thread is a small percent of what is occuring. claim what you will- but the evidence shows that the law does not protect everyone anymore.

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[Gort]

It might be harder, especially now, for someone to come here, but the point is that they have as much opportunity to make something of themself as the person born here. It can be done; it has been done, and it will continue to be done.

By the way, I love Holland. It's probably my favorite country in Europe. Good beer, good people, good cheer.

[f3nce]

Boy. THAT article is sure unbiased. Plus, it backs up everything that it says with precise diction!

Heh. Wow. Social Drone said something, for once, that I won't have to be wary of, although what he said was actually just a potpourri of eloquent quotes.

"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolute." - Patrick Henry

Every president, thousands of semi-informed Americans jump to arms about how he's bending the Constitution and bending Lady Liberty. Clinton bombed Iraq just to keep the public eye off of his crotch. Bush catered to the corporate pocket and funded terrorists to overthrow Hussein. Reagan boned the economy, Carter (or was it Ford?) pardoned Nixon, Nixon carried on the Vietnam War for 5 years too long, Johnson was a racist, Kennedy was an adulterer, Eisenhower nuked our atmosphere and condoned McCarthyism, Truman dropped the bombs on an already-crippled Japan. Roosevelt, possibly our greatest president, made the government so expansive that 8 million people were employed in public works programs. Hoover and Coolidge caused the Great Depression, and Warren G. Harding's administration sold federal reserve land to private oil concerns.

The presidents- damned with them, damned wihtout them.

All of this petty "MY COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN YOUR COUNTRY" bickering is pretty futile. There are no other Americas around, so it's impossible to compare freedoms, foreign policy, or laws. Germany and Holland have no terrorism or immigration laws because they don't need them; the only thing they have to fear is the Communist running for president on the left, and the Neo-Nazi running for president on the right.

[Gort]

quote

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you can't impose a treaty on countries that don't want it unless you are a fascist conquerer

That comment is so lame and without any substance. Hitler was facist. Fundementalist Christians are facists. The Taliban are facists. Please explain to me how George Bush is a facist.

By the way, I am not a republican, so it isn't as if I am taking up cause for Georgy; I think you are just using the term "facist" arbitrarily. In other words, could you please state your point without name calling?

[Vesuvius]

I didn't say he is, but I said you can't force everyone to adhere to a treaty that they don't want to unless you are.

could you listen to my point without name calling, and without jumping to incorrect conclusions, without belittling my points as "lame and without substance" and without ignoring the gist of my entire message so that you can focus on the one thing you find wrong, which is also the one thing you apparently misread.

[Vesuvius]

f3nce, look it up, every point in that article is true. the point about forcing people to applaud is debatable, but it was reported as such by (I think it was) ABC online. the other points are rock-solid accurate. you differ? look them up, they're all happening.

[Gort]

Did I call you any name? Well? I said your point was lame and without substance - which it is. I never called you any name.

I for one am an environmentalist, and I am not arguing your points concerning Dubbwa's insensitivity to environment, but I stand by my comments: the Kyoto Treaty does not have widespread global participation, and it's still not fair that we should have to be the ones to make concessions when ther are other nations doing just as much environmental harm.

And our laws are entitled to all - except to those deemed threats to national security. These terrorists out there do not care about how tolerant you are of Islam or anything else; they don't care about you or me or the three year girl playing in the park down the street. All they care about is that you and me and everyone else are dead, so you had best start learning to deal with the current situation, because that's what it's going to take to get us back to normal. If you don't like it, then I suggest "shrugging the atlas" and pack it out.

Call me what you will.

[Vesuvius]

yeah, but who is considered a threat to national security and what is needed to prove they are a threat? apparently no evidence.
and just because they are considered a threat doesn't mean they are one, as I already stated, and you already ignored, 95% of the 1500+ people who were held an average of 7 months in solitary confinement and denied lawyers were not charged with any crimes at all. so apparently nation security threats are determined by ethnicity rather than affiliation with terrorist organizations. Additionally, another point you either didn't read or understand is that the new powers given to the FBI to eavesdrop on anyone for any reason affect all of us, even if you aren't currently a target, it means that anything you say at any time in any private conversation could be monitored and used to call you an enemy combatant (on as little basis as heresay, which is allowed as evidence in our new tribunal system) and then all your rights dissappear.

Just because you aren't being actively effected by the changes, just because you don't see them hanging swaztikas and marching in the streets, doesn't mean that a dangerous new movement isn't occuring, and it doesn't mean you're any more safe.

I realize though that arguing with you is a useless endeavor, as you ignore all the points that don't gratify you. you've conveniently ignored the fact that the vast majority of the changes I've mentioned have NOTHING to do with you being a threat to national security, they effect everyone. You also ignored my point that if you wait for the entire world to take action in order to justify joining the kyoto treaty, then you'll never do anything and you justify making things worse yourself because johnny over there isn't doing anything either. please. And FYI, talking about our 'fair share', as of 1997 (the most recent figure I could find in a quick search), we were emitting 1/5 of the world's total greenhouse gas emissions. But that of course gives us no responsibility unless the entire world cries up in unity KYOTO, otherwise you say we can just go 'fuck it' to the environment because it's not fair we clean up and make a significant difference unless everyone everywhere does.

[Gort]

quote

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Just because you aren't being actively effected by the changes, just because you don't see them hanging swaztikas and marching in the streets, doesn't mean that a dangerous new movement isn't occuring, and it doesn't mean you're any more safe.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard or read. You're paranoid. It will never come to that. Absurd! And what makes you so sure these incarcerated people are not threats - likewise what proof do you have?

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Additionally, another point you either didn't read or understand is that the new powers given to the FBI to eavesdrop on anyone for any reason affect all of us, even if you aren't currently a target, it means that anything you say at any time in any private conversation could be monitored and used to call you an enemy combatant (on as little basis as heresay, which is allowed as evidence in our new tribunal system) and then all your rights dissappear

Right...like the FBI's infrastructure for intelligence gathering can facilitate such widespread eavesdropping. It'll never happen. Heed my words.

And arguing with you is useless as well, for you fail to see my point, although I see yours - I refuse to accept it with credence.

[social drone]

blah blah...

i posted all those quotes, cause... the history surrounding the "founing fathers" has been rewritten into bullshit fairy tales.

bush is a tyrant, he may not be a fascist yet...but hes coming damn close

fascism:

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Quote:

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

the bush family is american royalty, they are a modern monarchy. you can try and argue this point, but it will only reflect upon your own stupidity.

bush is a would be facist, tyrant, and traitor...and so is most of his administration.


if i had the money, i would sue their ass's out of office. maybe someone will loan me a couple billion...

[sacrelicious]

Tom- There's something in this country called due process to which we're all entitled. Even if the people held were security threats they still have the right to legal counsel, unbiased speedy trial, etc. The fact that they were held indefinitely without being charged makes the government's actions illegal. Like you said in your post, we don't have any proof that they weren't threats (although the fact that so many of them were released is proof enough for me); but if the government had proof that they were, they are legally obliged to act on said proof or release the suspects. Our justice system is based on the idea of innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Holding someone without having evidence or filing a charge, and putting them in solitary confinement without access to a lawyer and/or national consulate goes against everything the Constitution stands for. If you don't think that's fascist, you need to wake up. And with regards to FBI eavesdropping: The scary fact is not necessarily that they will monitor all our phone calls and internet actions, etc, it's that they now legally can.

You may think we're paranoid. Well, it's hard not to be paranoid when these type of things are taking place. To me, anyone who's not at least a little freaked out by these continuing trends towards totalinarianism is either ignorant or stupid.

[Gort]

quote

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You may think we're paranoid. Well, it's hard not to be paranoid when these type of things are taking place. To me, anyone who's not at least a little freaked out by these continuing trends towards totalinarianism is either ignorant or stupid.

I gather you're now calling me ignorant or stupid. Very well. Here's one for you: "Trends towards totalarianism" - to me anyone that believes such rubbish is a complete utter dumbass. It will never happen. We're too smart and in greater numbers to let it ever happen. We have processes and mechanisms in place that will never let it happen. As I stated before, totalarianism is a utopian concept; it will never happen, and I really feel sorry for you if you think it ever will.

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bush is a would be facist, tyrant, and traitor...and so is most of his administration

Another absolutely absurd comment without substance. I challenge you to explain or validate your "claim" within the constructs of logical thought. Now keep in mind I am not a Bush advocate; I did not vote for him, not have I ever voted for the Republican party, but your comment comes across as so emotional and without any real thought to what it actually states. Please validate your claim. And try to do it without calling me stupid.

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Carter ]

[Impaler]

I'm with Tom on this one, although Vesuvius' points on the detainees was somewhat accurate.

However, I have to refute some of the more glaringly slanted opinions in this thread.

First, Vesuvius, I've done more than enough research on current issues, and I still say that the article was sensationalism meant to cater to audiences with a taste for distrust. There are too many broadstrokes and loaded words to call the article objective. For example, the article attributes the War on Terrorism to the president, and not the congress that actually declared the war. It also neglects to analyze the motives behind a purposely broad police action, where an enemy that's damned near to pin down like a terrorist group can't be definitely targetted. Osama bin Laden was in Yemen when he bombed the U.S.S Cole, and he was held up in Sudan before that.

Granted, the war has been full of mistakes(bombing our own runway, blowing up a wedding, killing the Canadian and the French), but those can be attributed more to an Alvin York mentality among the troops rather than a fascist dictator sitting in the Oval Office.

The Ministry of Truth thing is obviously flawed; the public isn't easily fooled, as you can see in this thread, and the Ohio State scenario is highly dubious. It seems that they have left some crucial elements out of the spotlight, like who exactly told the students to behave. Was it the scary G-Men, or was it the dean? The article failed to identify the perpetrators of this censorship.

The FBI phone tap and and all of that is easily attributed to the Big Brother paranoia. The scary bottom line is, we actually have no real right to privacy in our Constitution. Sure, we have protection against search and seizure, but that only feasibly applies to actual unwarranted arrest, or the police coming through and digging through your secret pot stash without any cause. I'll grant that the police cannot tap your phone line without a court order, but I still have to side with Tom on the point that the FBI simply does not have the manpower or the funding to tap every phone line, which is what the article was leaning towards.

Never once does it make the key analysis, the logical leap between Big Brother and George Bush himself. That analysis has been ignored in this thread as well. What makes Bush special? What makes him the tyrant? What sets him apart from any other presidents so far that he becomes Big Brother? I'll bet that any other president would have taken nearly the same route as Bush.

[sacrelicious]

Tom: I wasn't specifically calling you stupid; in fact, you seem like a pretty smart fellow. You don't really seem ignorant either (and by ignorant I mean not aware of all pertinent facts in a given situation), just slightly too complacent for your own good. You seem to think that everything will sort itself out; that the mechanisms which are indeed in place to prevent such things from occurring will do just that. I, on the other hand, worry that these mechanisms will be ignored, circumvented, or just plain fail. You say that totalitarianism is a utopian concept which therefore can never occur in the real world; I say that conditions in countless nation-states throughout history have so closely approached totalitarianism that the difference is meaningless. You also state that we're too smart to let such a thing take place. Well sure, we're smart enough, but a good portion of the American public is neither intelligent, mature, or informed enough to take action until after things have gone too far. I speak with people all over the country from all different racial and socio-economic backgrounds daily at my job, and I hate to say that my faith in the American public has diminished even further than I thought possible.

All in all, I don't think you're necessarily wrong and I'd love for things to fix themselves. I just have the feeling that that won't happen. If this sort of Big Brother b.s. continues it will take an intervention by the people to set things right, and at this point I don't know if the people have the strength, wisdom, and unity to do such a thing.

[[666]Flat]

Tom Carter wrote:

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Quote:

Clarify for me, but is it true that Germany does not have a law that allows the newborn child of Turkish (or any other nationality other than German) parents living in Germany citizenship by birth in Germany? Passive intolerance if you ask me. There are generations of "foreigners" in Germany that have no citizenship there. Am I incorrect?

YES YOU ARE. Foreigners who live in Germany for a certain period of time do have the right to apply for German citizenship. If you're born in Germany, you have that right too of course. Contrary to sweden the foreigners here in Germany ain't even forced to learn the offical language in order to improve their integration. And integration is a big prob indeed, because a lot ot the foreign workers tend to isolate themselves and to form ghettos filled up with people who want to earn some money and get back to their home country founding a new existence there with their savings. They fear they could give up their national identity, so what they do is sticking together, forming closed communities. Making it all even worse, because their children are growing up in a country they don't even speak the official language of. It's so bad in some districts of the big cities that the parents of those kids even forbid them to meet their german friends... They think their childrens would accompany them on their way home (=home country) one day, but fact is, that rarely happens. Why? Because their home country ain't Turkey or Croatia or Poland or I dunno what country their parents are coming from, it's Germany - they grew up here, that's their native land and no other. What I'm trying to say is, a lot of the foreign workers made a very bad job of giving their kids a solid foundation for their future, in terms of education and mentality. When I make the decision to immigrate to another country I should be willing to get in touch with the local conditions (law et al) and at least learn the local fucking language, dammit. I'm not worrying about the foreign people who came here to make a better living. Or feeling disturbed by their tendency to isolate themselves in ghettos. What really freaks me out is the fact their childrens are going to have a hard time making a stand out there and/or get some solid education - only due to the sheer ignorance of their parents.

No wonder the unemployment rate among the "foreigns" (if that applies to someone who spent almost his entire life in a country) is so damn high.

I guess the way Sweden is handling the whole immigration deal is the only possible way to prevent the development of social focal points. Quote taken from http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scn/faq724.html :

"Swedes also tend to expect more of integration and assimilation from the immigrants than is the case in for instance Germany."


And I'm talking about INTEGRATION, not ASSIMILATION. You don't have to give up your identity in order to integrate yourself into a community or country. 'nuff said.

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: [666]Flat ]

[Beowulfthefallen]

Tom: You seem overly keen on negating everyone else's opinions with no real thought-provoking "evidence" of your own. You just dismiss it all as rubbish, saying it will all work out and that we could never be dictated over.

In order for our constitution to work and for us to overpower our government, we would need a massive movement of people who know what is going on and who will fight. This will never happen. The government controls all the real weapons. Our guns are useless against their tanks and jets. The simple idea of being able to gather enough people to sort our government is laughable, as well. We are a minority, those who believe that the United States is not as pure as it lets out to be. The news stations won't ever tell about what horrible shit our government is doing, because the broadcasters themselves pander to the American government. We have lately been influenced that hating our government is the same as hating our country. Had the forefathers seen this, they would surely have realized what a great mis-step this country has taken.

We tend to not realize the small buildups each day. We don't notice small changes in our government. Largely, that information is kept from us. Before you know it, Bush will be asking for the House and Senate to be disbanded in order for the country to be better served. Then we can have a nice dictatorship going. Then again, that's basically what's already happening. Most of the time, Bush will get what he wants, since he is the great leader of the "free" world. There will come a day when we have lost everything that is in the bill of rights to support Bush's private war on terrorism. What will this war get us? It will get us more enemies. It will kill our own American men for a redundant cause. We can't weed out the terrorists. They hold the cards. They are like the guerillas of the American Revolution. They are the unseen, the stealthy. We still rely on the lumbering army to fight for us. How long, then, will it take us to realize that our tactics are futile? 250,000 young men's lives? 300,000? Can someone else but me see the resemblance between the Revolutionary War and Vietnam? I can, and I see us losing a great military battle very soon, and I hope Bush gets ousted because of it before he can cause any more damage.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Beowulfthefallen ]

[Coaster]

beowulf, well if we didn't have guns we could use terror, such as, oh say, flying planes into buildings or ohhh, say car bombing a city block