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Author   Topic : "an observation"
CWGabriel
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Joined: 09 Nov 1999
Posts: 2
Location: Spokane, Wa, USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 11:09 pm     Reply with quote
I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now and I have noticed something I thought I would share. Much of the art that gets posted on here has some pretty amazing shading and computer effects and it seems to me that the main focus of many of the artists here is to sharpen their Photoshop techniques. However much of it lacks strong basic drawing skills. I have seen countless beautifully shaded and rendered figures with lumpy and mis-proportioned anatomy. To every person who posts on this board and asks for advice here is mine. Practice your basic drawing skills as much as you do your Photoshop ones. Study anatomy books and draw out figures with a pencil before you draw them with a mouse. I'm not trying to say that my drawing skills are better than anyone else's. But I am working on it and it is what I focus on the most. I've had two years of figure drawing in college and anatomy and proportion are still hard for me. But it is something I focus on and so it is getting better. The Photoshop side of it is easy in comparison.

My comic: http://www.penny-arcade.com
My art: http://www.penny-arcade.com/gabeart/index.htm
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ka0z
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Joined: 10 Nov 1999
Posts: 68
Location: Forest Hills, NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 11:30 pm     Reply with quote
I agree with Michael's observation a hundred percent. It's unusual to see a good graphic artist with no 'traditional thing' in the background. Craig Mullins is a great example of this. He is a real painter, and using his knowledge he creates some totally breathtaking digital art. Sure, using the dodge/burn tool and adding some effects its cool and stuff, but it wont do any good if the basis isnt well proportioned and the persepctive is twisted. I, for example, do a sketch on a piece of paper first, if I like what was done, scan it and paint it in Photoshop. Knowing the right propotions/perspective is essential for any aspiring (digital) artist. Also, anatomy is _VERY_ important. No way you can be a good (digital) artist without the basic drawing skills. So, there.. Draw a lot
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Funfetus
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Joined: 26 Oct 1999
Posts: 343
Location: West Covina, CA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 11:51 pm     Reply with quote
I've always felt that strong drawing skills are the foundation you need to build on, as well. The Photoshop techniques are quite simple, really. Dodging and burning is easy. The hard part is knowing exactly WHERE to dodge and burn. Of course, if you know anatomy and have a strong grasp of 3D forms, that part's no problem either...

Other things that are often ignored are composition and color harmony, I think. I'm guilty of at least one of these most of the time.... :/

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Funfetus
iCE VGA Division
http://www.funhousedigital.com


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jasonN
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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
Posts: 842
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 12:35 am     Reply with quote
Funfetus is right. Colour harmony is also a big thing. Having good colour sense is definetely important, and just general sense of what looks good and what doesn't.
Even if you know photoshop inside out, you'll never produce anything good if you don't know the fundamentals of colour, line and shape.
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CyberArtist
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Joined: 04 Nov 1999
Posts: 284
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 12:40 am     Reply with quote
I've been drawing since I was 6 years old... and drawing pretty well. I've taken a couple years of photography, and a couple art classes (taking drawing and 2d design classes in college right now). I've spent the last 3 years personally studying the human body and drawing it simply though observation of people walking around school/downtown, etc.

You know what? I still can't draw the human form well.

This image is probably my best human drawing I've done (as far as correct proportions go), and that one was done from memory, not from life.

Most people also seem to try to make something that "looks cool." This kind of mind set has plagued the 3d art community to no end since making a bizzare multi-faceted shape with some really complex green and purple proceedural texture and lots of colored lights "looks cool." It's utter crap, but people still put it up saying "omg! this is cool! Look how good I am!" But then, if you delve deeply into my 3d art gallery on my page, you'll find some stuff similar to that... so I shouldn't be talking.

Hopefully someday I'll be able to do some 3d art that doesn't look like it was done in 20 minutes and draw the human form correctly... that's why I'm going to college anyways. That and the women.

...

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-CyberA(rtist) aka Ben Golus

Cyber...

(my grammar seems to be rather bad as well)

[This message has been edited by CyberArtist (edited November 12, 1999).]
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luther
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Joined: 04 Nov 1999
Posts: 22
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 1:44 am     Reply with quote
I know my proportions are all screwed up.. I always end up drawing the head too large for the body
I think the hardest thing is when, after looking at a pic for so long, you can't tell what's right and what's wrong any more.
I agree though, I know I should work harder on my figures.

Tim.
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Funfetus
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Joined: 26 Oct 1999
Posts: 343
Location: West Covina, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 1:57 am     Reply with quote
Cyberartist --

When I sit down to work on some art, my primary goal is to make something that "looks cool". Everything else -- the composition, the proportion, the anatomy, the color -- is all in service of that. So I don't see anything wrong with just trying to make something look cool.

As far as 3D goes, though, it probably is too easy to just make something that "looks cool". How many times have we seen the chrome spheres floating above the checkerboard? But anyone who knows what's up can see past it.

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Funfetus
iCE VGA Division
http://www.funhousedigital.com


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CyberArtist
member


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Joined: 04 Nov 1999
Posts: 284
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 2:27 am     Reply with quote
Funfetus-

I think I should not of mentioned that "utter crap" part. No, there isn't anything wrong with just trying to make something that looks cool, and sometimes what looks cool is improper anatomy, and most of my drawings show that as I intensionally alter the anatomy of my drawing to make it look bizzare.

On the other hand, you have skills. Your drawings for the most part have proper anatomy and lighting. Your images "look cool," but for you the cool looking image is not getting the filter-laiden effects, but getting the composition, colors, and over all look of the image correct, or as correct as possible. That sets you apart from a lot of digital artists out there, including some on this forum. (and no, I won't name names)

P.S. Some of the links on your site are broken images. I'd really like to look at some of them.


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-CyberA(rtist) aka Ben Golus

Cyber...
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bEam
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Joined: 04 Nov 1999
Posts: 49
Location: Kerava, Finland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 2:59 am     Reply with quote
Well my opinion of all this (after studying visual arts in second senior) that people can be good only by practising, BUT we all have limits tho. You can't expect you to be as good as someone other, no matter how hard you try, because if you just don't have the talent, then you just can't be as good as someone else who have a talent.
I'll take for example CyberArtist's picture of that man sitting down...you said that you drawed that picture from your memory..well that's the way you make it! No-one talented artist copy their pictures from photographs etc, they draw everything from their minds!
And I wondered howcome you haven't drawn better human after studying it so hard...that's not bad, not at all, but let's say, that I've seen better humans, drawn by 17 years old young people.
This is sad, but it's just the way it is...you just can't be Boris Vallejo or some other great artist if you don't have a talent, and if you do, it doesn't mean automatically that you'll be as good as some other good artist.

But by practising you'll get near. How near, it depends on your talents.
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Affected
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Joined: 22 Oct 1999
Posts: 1854
Location: Helsinki, Finland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 5:34 am     Reply with quote
what's the definiton of 'cool' here? That word always reminds me of the type of things a lot of pre-teen boys think are really neat, you know, big angry guys with big guns...
Me, I try to put some emotion in my pics. Lately I've been aiming at doing that not by having any characters look like they're in a certain mood, but rather more subtly. With shading, and colours, of course, but also with the composition.

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Affected
http://affected.cjb.net

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B
member


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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
Posts: 322
Location: Houston, Tx, USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 6:53 am     Reply with quote
for the record, Boris Valego my eggo, pays people to model for his drawings, takes a lot of poleroids, then paints from these photographs,.. this is how he gets the proper anatomical size and shapes for people,. dogs turn into dragins, and things like this,.

i'm not saying he isn't a great artist,. but even the great ones work from photographs,.

hell, davinci made the mona lisa in the same fashion,. of course they didn't have cameras back then, but ou get the idea,.
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CyberArtist
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Joined: 04 Nov 1999
Posts: 284
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 7:56 pm     Reply with quote
A lot of great artists constantly use images or models to draw/paint/etc. from. Saying that great artists always do it all from memory would be a bad thing to say... arogent artists who think they know all they need to might do so, and in some cases may be right, but most will continue to use photos and models and others' work to continue evolving their own work to higher levels of excellence.

As for my life drawings, I'm more concerned with emotions than actual muscle form... and you don't often see people nude while sitting in a math class.
Also, I should explain my "personally studying" comment. I tend not to draw as often as most others seem to, something that has really hurt my skills, but over the last 3 years, when I AM drawing, I try to focus on human figures.
Obviously, my knowledge of their form is greatly laking still, and I know that. I've seen better human forms drawn by people my age and younger too. Everyone's skills grow at a different rate, and at different times.


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-CyberA(rtist) aka Ben Golus

Cyber...
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arioch
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Joined: 01 Nov 1999
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 9:31 pm     Reply with quote
I strongly believe that with enough practice and desire anyone can achieve greatness no matter how little inherent talent they have. However someone who has a gift for art may reach the same point in a matter of years while it may take someone with no inherent talent their whole life to achieve the same results (and thats only if they want it bad enough). Im talking about the extremes here and most of us fall somewhere in between.
Drawing directly from the mind without any reference is difficult at best. If you took someone with a lot of raw talent and had them draw from their mind. Then had them do the same drawing again using reference material. Im certain you would see signifigant improvement in their second piece.
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imdaking
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Joined: 22 Oct 1999
Posts: 321
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 1999 10:49 pm     Reply with quote
Great Post guys :

CyberArtist>> Go get, Dynamic Figure Drawing by Burne Hogarth... I just picked it up a day or so ago and it really is awesome. I am sure it will help anyone who wants to draw human anatomy better.

Anyways,

I dont really know the defenition between talent, and skill... I think I have skill when I play soccer and hit the left upper V from right outside the 18. Is that skill or talent? If I can draw a bad ass portrait of some guy... but I cant draw a monster from adam, Do I have skill in drawing the human form, or talent? What is the difference. If I practice drawing a monster for 4 years, and do not draw a human all in that time. I will have skill at drawing monsters, but lose my talent at drawing humans??? I dont know.

Also, I am 16... so... I think I can define "Cool" if you want me too... he he he...

Okay... Cool, is anything that is great, and involves your interests... Such as Dhabi's "Tempest" picture, that is cool to me.. because it is great artwork, and I absolutely love fantasy like that, magic and stuff you know?? Catch my drift?
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Sumaleth
Administrator


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Joined: 30 Oct 1999
Posts: 2850
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 1999 9:37 pm     Reply with quote
Gabe, mate, a quick comment on anatomy; humans have 4 fingers and 1 thumb, not 3 fingers and a thumb .

--

imdaking:

IMO (and this goes against general opinion), skill and talent are really the same thing.


Sumaleth http://impact.frag.com
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